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Chains as TR anchors: a problem?
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By Rmsyll
From Winston-Salem, NC
Feb 19, 2012

The attached photo:

chains for TR anchors
chains for TR anchors

shows something new for the location, chains added to bolted rim anchors to allow rappel after cleaning Trad gear. The quick-links were each clipped with a carabiner to be used for top-rope belay. What I see is the rope being squeezed between the spines of the carabiners.

Chains extending over the rim are reportedly common at other areas, so I was wondering if this method of using them is common because it does not actually produce the drag it appears to me to cause.
.


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By JulianB
From Florence, SC
Feb 19, 2012
Mt. Rainier summit.

Why not clip quickdraws to the chains and then clip the rope through the other ends of the draws? Might eliminate that pinching action.


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By Eric M.
From mashpee, ma
Feb 19, 2012

Seems to me like clipping each carabiner through both of the links would also fix the issue.


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By Ben Beckerich
From saint helens, oregon
Feb 19, 2012
About half way up the East Arete on Illumination Rock

Yep.. either go quickdraws from higher up (also reduces wear on the anchor) or just clip the links. Make sure you put the carabiner under the link, or it'll chew up your 'biners.


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By FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Feb 19, 2012

If the rope pulls freely, then the use of the carabiners is fine. I usually just build an anchor off the bolts, then, when done climbing, thread the rope through the quicklinks to rap off.

But the use of chains is common.


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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Feb 19, 2012

Zero issues... except on the internet.


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By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Feb 19, 2012
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.

caughtinside wrote:
Zero issues... except on the internet.


Got that right. Sheesh. That setup is about as ideal as it gets. The rope isn't even touching the rock at all. Toprope the shit out of that.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Feb 19, 2012
Stabby

Sheesh is right. BTW, flip the front biner and your "pinching" goes away. For what its worth, the bolts should be a bit farther apart.


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By Jim Reynolds
Feb 20, 2012
THe Knows of Al Kepiten

Yer gonna die!

I just had too...


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By Yarp
Feb 20, 2012

That set up looks about perfect to me. Gotta agree with caughtinside on this one.


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By prod.
From Boulder, Co
Feb 20, 2012

Just use 1 locker.

Prod.


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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Feb 20, 2012

Rmsyll wrote:
What I see is the rope being squeezed between the spines of the carabiners.


I actually cannot imagine a simple two-point anchor that does not feature rope pinching unless you elect to equalize between the two of them. Even as is, when the whole thing comes under load, the chains themselves will shift just a bit so that the pinching is minimized. Of course, equalizing between two big burly bolts with big burly chains says, in no uncertain terms, that you expect to be toproping so hard that you'll exceed the strength ratings of both bolt and chain but somehow not break the carabiner involved.

I don't like using chains in my anchor, but otherwise, it does not get any better than this setup.


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By Robert Cort
Feb 20, 2012

Rmsyll wrote:
What I see is the rope being squeezed between the spines of the carabiners.


It's only going to cause drag (pinching) when the rope is loaded, so a little more friction during a fall or while lowering. No worries. If you flip the left biner, and reversed the right one (i.e. gates facing each other and wide end down) it wouldn't pinch like that at all.


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By Johny Q
Feb 20, 2012
My profile

Not enough locking biners. Next time use at least four or it's considered dangerous.

But seriously,

you might want to cammo those chains a little, Killis is lurking.


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By Woodchuck ATC
Feb 20, 2012
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

Mike Lane wrote:
Sheesh is right. BTW, flip the front biner and your "pinching" goes away. For what its worth, the bolts should be a bit farther apart.


Exactly. My thoughts on the flipped 'biner and space the bolts about 6 inches further apart and it's sweet to go.


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By Rmsyll
From Winston-Salem, NC
Feb 21, 2012

'JulianB' said "Why not clip quickdraws to the chains...."
Photo of that shows the same situation, simply a bit lower.

'Eric M.' said "Seems to me like clipping each carabiner through both of the links would also fix the issue."
Those quick-links would stack the carabiners, with the upper one taking the load and badly rubbing the lower one.

'Mike Lane' added "flip the front biner and your 'pinching' goes away."
I wondered if shape of the carabiners is part of the situation. The ones used, and most quick-draw carabiners, are angled on the ends, sliding the rope into the arc and causing the apparent squeeze. The more triangular ones, with the large end down, might be better, but not everyone has those.

'prod.' said "Just use 1 locker."
Well, yeah. But people are so set on "redundancy" at this location.

'caughtinside' said "Zero issues" with some agreements. Hope so, because this is a high-use route for mostly TR for beginners.

Thank you all.
.




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By Crag Dweller
From New York, NY
Feb 21, 2012
My navigator keeps me from getting lost

that set up is fine.

but, if you're really worried about it, simply use one locking carabiner placed through each of the quick links. that assumes, of course that the QLs are positioned such that you can clip one 'biner through both and load each bolt equally.

edit to add: i just noticed that someone had already suggested that idea. if people are set on 'redundancy', educate them.

but, again, there's nothing wrong with that set up in the first place. actually, if you paid close attention to every two-bolt anchor set up, you'd notice that the 'pinching' you mention is pretty common.


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By Sir Wanksalot
From County Jail
Feb 21, 2012

Your in more danger sitting on your couch than top roping on that anchor. Maybe it will kink your rope a bit. Move the biners around til the rope runs smooth. No need to "oppose" lockers.

You could always just run the rope through the Quick Links and top rope right off the chains!(insert sarcasm) That's what they do in CCC and BoCan.


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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Feb 21, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks

Mike Lane wrote:
Sheesh is right. BTW, flip the front biner and your "pinching" goes away. For what its worth, the bolts should be a bit farther apart.


The bolt spacing is probably fine. Those look like they're probably about 6 inches apart and there is one powerbolt (5-piece) and one wedge anchor. Both the powerbolt and the wedge anchor have a minimum spacing of 2 x the length of the bolt to achieve full strength and they are most likely 2.25" to 3" in length.


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By ian watson
From Albuquerque, NM
Feb 21, 2012

Jim Reynolds wrote:
Yer gonna die! I just had too...



good call


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By prod.
From Boulder, Co
Feb 21, 2012

Rmsyll wrote:
'prod.' said "Just use 1 locker." Well, yeah. But people are so set on "redundancy" at this location.


Don't worry about what "people" are doing. Worry about yourself. 1 locker or 2 opposed regular biners is pretty common.

Prod.


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By bearbreeder
Feb 21, 2012

its a TR anchor on 2 bolts .... jeez ;)

lets not have massive amounts of posts on TR anchor analysis on bolts shall we =P


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By Rmsyll
From Winston-Salem, NC
Feb 22, 2012

'bearbreeder' commanded 'lets not have massive amounts of posts on TR anchor analysis on bolts"

If the subject does not interest you, it is appropriate for you to stay out of it.
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By bearbreeder
Feb 23, 2012

Rmsyll wrote:
'bearbreeder' commanded 'lets not have massive amounts of posts on TR anchor analysis on bolts" If the subject does not interest you, it is appropriate for you to stay out of it. .


who ever knew that TR anchors on 2 bolts could be so complicated ...

the only people i know who run around spouting stuff about TR bolted anchors are new TR tough guys that want to show off their "knowledge" ;)


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By snacyhook
Feb 23, 2012

Got that right.


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By Gif Zafred
From Pittsburgh, PA
Feb 23, 2012
Gif on Bimbo Shrine, Kaymoor

I like locking ovals on a top rope anchors. Won't pinch the rope.


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