I realize that no one expected for me to weigh in on this subject, so I'll be brief. [not a chance]

Crista, thanks for weighing in and reminding all these big strong Alphas that they are generally outclimbed by your miniscule self on a regular basis. It's not often you and I run into each other, but it's nice being reminded that unplasticized people still live here. Hope you and J are enjoying your new place.

Someone needs to put check on the notion that it's massively difficult to get a dozen quickdraws up a five minute approach. The irony here is that one of the reasons I got into climbing with all the scrappy approaches, smelly armpithair "babes", and calcium carbonite mess was for the fucking EXERCISE. Did anyone miss the memo? You're climbing <5.3 and you tell me you're hard pressed to hump ten pounds in a snazzy REI pack with a rape whistle preattached up a trail that's shorter than my 2 block walk to the climbing gym? I think I just laughed so hard I pissed in my cereal.

BillDLee, I know, I know, it's fun to get online and tell everyone to go fuck themselves. I try and do it as often as I can between occasional breaks in running my mouth in the real world. But here's what you missed with your plaintive cries of "if we give up permadraws, we might as well give up chalk!(sob)":

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE CLIMBING QUITE WELL WITHOUT CHALK.

And, thus, we earn the right to talk shit.

Bragging that you once put up 5.11 on gear, ground-up, sounds like one-upsmanship to me. Does doing the same thing, onsight and without chalk, empower me to tell you to go fuck off somewhere else if I don't like your chains? Ask the locals. I might be fat, mouthy, inconsistent, crotchety, and a host of other ills, but you'll never find someone who's witnessed me using chalk.

Now that I've fully established myself as an expert because I have climbed 5.11 with extra-fancy tactics, think about what you're saying and the ramifications of it.

BDL SEZ: There is nothing uglier than having chalk mark up a face. Much worse than chains or bolts. So go climb inside.

Which translates to: "if you don't like it, fuck off". I recommend trying this line of thinking loudly and aggressively next time you're adding chain draws and a ranger asks what's up-should be a lightning-quick validation of the social value of aforementioned attitude.

Envision a scenario here. I rock climb at the HenHouse (some call it the Roost) and find that the draws are a pain to hang but it's easy to throw a link, sling, and biner on each bolt and that makes the route a lot easier. I want to climb 5.13 and tell people about it in a forum online so I feel better about myself while slowly widening at my office job, so it is an obvious problem that 5.13 Roost route "Chip-pan-Z" is somehow still hard work, even with permadraws thoughtfully added. There's a crux that is rather uncomfortable for me-ivolves a lot of crimping and pulling, and I just want to feel good about myself for being at the top layer of the sport scum-pond, not actually "WORK" or "TRY HARD". So I add some bolt-on indoor holds (see recent VEYO/CRAWDAD CANYON forums for photos if this seems hard to believe) to an existing route, drill an extra pocket or two where it seems 'appropriate', climb the route, call it a pure send, and put in on my online scorecard instead of doing situps (again). Then some dumb "ethicist" comes along and tells me his "opinion", as if anyone's matters other than mine:

Ethicist: "You're ruining this route, this area, and the outdoor experience for others. The chains and bright yellow plastic holds are an eyesore that the NPS looks at as graffiti and a defacement of the natural resource. Further, while a majority of climbers in this country accept to some degree the validity of fully bolted routes on cliffs with scant other means of protection available, chain permadraws, bolt-on yellow plastic holds, and chipping (not to mention the stashed extension ladder and stick clip that resided at the cliff for six months while the 'projecting' was taking place) are not considered sustainable, ethical, respectful practices by the vast majority of the climbing community. By creating an image of a cavalier, "who-gives-a-fuck" mentality, permanently altering the rock in a visibly damaging way that impacts other user groups at this outdoor venue, and creating a bad example for younger climbers who look on and assimilate these values into their toolbox of available and acceptable methods, you are jeapordizing the use of this natural resource for the rest of us and creating a hostile and unpleasant climate for everyone. Please reconsider these poor choices and their possible effects."

Me: "Fuck off. Go climb somewhere else. Bolt-on SoIll holds are the STEEZ-IL, my permadraws have every right to be there and you don't. Go climb inside, where the chalk won't bother you.

Sounds about right, doesn't it?

I think one point that really hasn't been put into the light here is the concept of the rights of the first ascentionists. Dan McQuade put up dozens of chipped routes at the Hood, Roost, etc., but the number of his personal draws you'll find still hanging up there as a "public service" will be slim to none, because those routes were bolted and intended to be climbed in a style that involved a climber hanging his draws while climbing, working the route if necessary, sending, then cleaning them and moving on to the next one, or Thailand, whichever seemed more fun. The argument could be put forth to the visitor at Potosi that hanging chain draws off bolts that Joe Brooks installed, drawed, and then abandoned or left deliberately in place is no big deal, because that's exactly what the FA intended to accomplish, for better or for worse. But tell me that Richard Harrison intended permachains to hang from a route he put up is like telling me Bachar intended to blow up the Cookie Cliff so that no one else could climb it-fat fucking chance.

So maybe the question here should be: Is it acceptable to hang permanent additional equipment on routes you didn't put up? Does the first ascentionist have a say, or should he just pick another cliff to climb on, too?

I hope the time I could've spent doing situps today helped put this issue in perspective for some of you. Pissing in your own cereal is stupidity; pissing in everyone else's makes you a jackhole, plain and simple. Let's keep the chains in the S/M dungeons and the adventure outside.

I am not in favor of permadraws on routes that are easily cleaned while lowering or in a sensitive area where it might cause an access issue.

Hey Killis, I think we need a few more paragraphs to understand how you really feel.

Haven't been to Charleston. Have done first ascents and I have started using chaindraws. I do it because it is a bitch to clean a route that overhangs or angles sharply away from the anchors. Call me lazy. I added have draws to old routes and I am guessing most of the guys that did the FA's Killis mentioned would too if they still climb. I only add them if cleaning them is a real pain in the butt. One also had a safety issue when you pulled the last draw or two it was possible to swing into a rock. The angled routes generally only have one or two draws so you can clip them on the lower and be able to clean the bottom of the route more easily. As far as visual impact goes we camo paint them. I think they are less of an eyesore than colored nylon draws with Petzl in giant letters (ala Sharma and a lot of those other great climbers in the videos) that hang for months. If the the FS, or BLM complain then we could arrange to take them down at the end of each season thus they are not permadraws.


I once pointed out (she couldn't see them) to an FS biologist the chain anchors (shouldn't have them if it just makes getting down easy) at the tops of many pinnacles and explained why they are there and how we no longer had to look at old slings every where. Seemed like a good idea to her after I explained why they are there.

Hope you all work it out up there. Now get back to those sit ups Killis.

Your move BDL.

Hmmm... actually some of the people that did first ascents at the Roost are still climbing, and some would not like chain draws added to their routes.
What's next for Robber's Roost-gym lockers at the base to store one's gear(BYO Lock)long term. Heaven knows what a bitch it is to carry that pesky climbing rope up each time you want to work your project.
I understand that the climbing sport evolves, but in some circumstances I see it devolving a bit. Perhaps it is best to leave the not radically overhanging routes with just their simple bolt hangers, and we can all just use our sporty lil' quickdraws on them. We know the history of our biners. Some of the stuff that is hanging off those chains is just worn out crap. I can possibly understand the chains existing on the hardest to clean bolts on severely overhanging routes, but even that maybe should be kept to a minimum in a shared area.
I did notice that the hanging chains were mentioned in this weeks R-J "hike of the week" column featuring the hike to Robber's Roost.

I'm sure there are occasionally folks who walk up to the Henhouse and don't see the chains. I once had a friend somehow fail to notice an earthquake that occurred while we were both in the same room-apparently was just reading the back of a CD case that intently that there was no notice of every car alarm in the city going off simultaneously and screaming in the streets.

"Special" friends aside, an article mentioned by Michelle is in this week's LVReview-Journal and is concurrently published in the Summerlin View about Robber's Roost notes:

"Look up on the cliff walls and you'll see evidence that rock climbers use this area. There are dozens of climbing routes here; one of the most obvious will be on your right side, where you can see a series of metal chain draws that are bolted to the cliff face to attach a climbing rope."

Interestingly, and I think a bit ironically considering the scope of discussion here, the author adds:
"Only a few dozen yards from here you will be confronted with a steep cliff area and dry fall, which marks the end of the hike. Those who have advanced climbing skills could investigate farther, bu tI wouldn't recommend it for anyone else. There was a flimsy-looking rope here a few weeks ago, inviting an ascent. But the best advice I can give anyone is, never rely on a rope whose history you do not know, or one you did not anchor yourself."

The implications of this are several: that people ARE noticing and talking about chain draws in major publications, that even novice hikers can figure out ideas like not trusting fixed gear of uncertain condition, and that other user groups will most likely be seeing a rise in use of this area, meaning that climbers will be all the more on display soon, and thus our behavior will have an added impact as hikers watch and form opinions based on what they see.

Michelle is being pretty polite about what she's saying. As a longtime local and frequent partner to Richard Harrison, she is an active first ascentionist who has put up a good amount of sport routes near Las Vegas. And when she tells you that some of the people who put up the routes at the Roost are still climbing and are not inclined to be pleased with the chain draws that have been added to their routes, she's confirming what I've already been pointing out: the chain draws that have been placed on some of these routes are not sanctioned by the first ascentionists and are tantamount to retrobolting.

And for those who think Michelle might be stretching the limits of imagination by suggesting gym lockers at the base of the routes so that ropes don't have to be carried up, take a walk up to Mount Potosi's Clear Light Cave sometime. When I went up there a couple of years ago there were probably a dozen ropes in a big plastic tool trunk as well as all kinds of other ghettoness. At Lime Kiln my partner went to take a leak and found a 25 gallon Tupperware bin under a rock. Lime Kiln has a ten minute approach.

I realize that for climbers like myself who don't visit places like the Roost and the Hood very often, there's less validity given to our feelings of distaste when we express them in a forum like this. What I'd like to hear some of the pro-chain sportos say out loud and proud is this:

We don't care if the first ascentionists don't like what we've done to alter their routes. We don't care if the hikers complain to the Forest Service or the BLM about our fixed gear because we feel entitled to place it at will. We don't care if local climbers speak up against our practices in climbing forums or if the impact that a few climbers make negatively affects the Wilderness Management Plan for Red Rocks.

That's how I see the unspoken message. I told a certain local hardman who's put up or freed hundreds of routes here and lived in Vegas for decades about the debacle I instigated by removing two fixed draws from the VRG that were below waist level while standing on flat ground and then posted on MP.com about doing so. His response?

He laughed. He couldn't believe that things had gone so far since he's been out of the loop (still putting up 5.12 FAs, by the way). He told me I shouldn't worry about it, that people have been pretending to be climbers in Vegas since before the first magazine articles came out, and they aren't likely to stop soon. Another local "elder statesman" (who will probably beat me to death with a still-in-use U-stem Camalot with visibly cracked axles for calling him that) once told me that the nice thing about chipping is that once you've started it, it pretty much never stops at a given cliff. He said, "Go up to one of those 14c's and chip out a few dozen incut jugs to make a 5.7 out of it and see how they like it when YOU disrespect the rock the same way they do."

The bottom line is that I've got better things to do. I've been back to the VRG once since the Draw Incident and everything's still covered. Despite all the squawking, no one did anything about it. Like I told Mike a page or so ago; anyone who feels like it is welcome to go up there and take down any of that stuff that offends the eye, and I sincerely hope they do. I'm doubling up on school this fall and working OT; maybe I could buy someone a case of their choice if they take all that crap down or something. In any case, it's likely as not that if it goes away, it'll be blamed on me, so if you've got the time, knock yourself out and tell them you saw some weirdo with a pink backpack doing the dirty deed. I'll get a few laughs when the Throw-up-after-my-Clif-Bar crew suggests pistols at noon-because Pistols at Dawn would be too early for the Prana 'Hard''men' anyway.

Lame, lame, lame.

I live in Vegas. I was at the roost THE day these folks were installing the majority of the draws.

The most fundamental principle of being a human and playing outside should always be "LEAVE NO TRACE". Thus helping create a sustainable world for our children etc...

As a lover of our blue world I can not think of an instance where this edict doesn't hold true.

I received an email, and apparrently, I owe someone or someones a beer or three that I promised a long time ago.

Well done. PM me and claim your reward.

Nice try. Funny to see that someone who got ripped a new one by the same Saint George waitress is spreading the same kind of love my way. Ya know, I'm kinda getting used to being the beast under everyone's bed. It does have its downsides, but it's pretty funny that I haven't climbed at the Roost in almost three years and yet when someone's Chapstick goes missing, it gets chalked up to Mister I Love Chipped, Permadrawed Limestone himself. You know I also stole your retainer back in middle school...

The good news is it's getting nice and less hot in the canyons, so I'm sure the rad maxi pad crew will eventually tire of their tireless public service in permadrawing more responsibly and go back to chasing numbers under some gravel. FAIL. Thank you for playing.

No joke on the beer, no takers yet, maybe not internet prone folks, but my offer's still good if you're out there somewhere reading this. The more folks that get out there and take shit down up there, the better the chances that someone will eventually make an honest redpoint of any of those mostly very forgettable climbs. Not a life-changing issue for anyone I know, hence my lack of doing anything about it that involves more than typing, but two thumbs up to the concerned citizen/s and four thumbs down to anyone wasting their time and money making the ghetto more ghetto. The things we waste our time on while life passes us by....way more effective to buy beer than to have to hang out there myself. Incidentally, I'll be buying whatever grown men that can hang their own draws drink. You wouldn't know.

Time keeps on tickin', tickin' tickin'...into the future...

I Have not read most of the posts in regards to this thread. having said that this is all that i can add.

Many people posting to this thread do not seem to have actually talked directly to any representatives of the forest service.

as an individual not representing the climbing community i have now had several in person conversations with Shawnee who is in charge of special use permiting for the spring mountains national recreation and wilderness area, which is owned by the national forest service. since climbing, and guiding are under his jurisdiction of "special use" he is the person to talk to in regards to what is allowed climbing wise for mount charleston.

among many other topics i had mentioned to him that myself and several other members of the climbing community were planning on removing most of the unnecessary perma-draws up at the robbers roost, and then the ones that we were going to leave in place we were also planning to then install steel biners for safety reasons.

before we were able to remove the perma draws they were stolen.

Shawnee's response was that we should have left them up so that other user groups see that there is a strong climbers presence up at the roost.

the actual forest service wants them up there.

i do not think that we as a community need them all up there, some are nice in some situations.

shawnee also wants the climbing community to bolt more rock climbs up at charleston. lots more.

part of my plan, and justification of the removal of most of the draws is that it would lower the number of people that would be climbing there. many climbers who can not climb the routes at the roost have in the past gone there because there are fixed draws.

the other part of justifying removing the chains was to start putting up easier climbs for beginner rock climbers.

my self and chris forte bolted five beginner climbs at a crag further down the road. we called it the "starter crag" these routes were bolted specifically with the people who will be climbing on them in mind. the bolting on them is generous.

i would personally ask that the chains not be re-installed and instead people just put up more moderate rock climbs.

i have walked to very nearly every single un bolted cliff on the entire mountain and could supply to anyone info about cliffs.

the forest service wants more climbing. they are providing as we speak more parking for us and others.

i will also give people bolts and hangers if they want them, or at least get people in contact with deals to make bolting cheaper for them. i cant fully supply people but i could possibly help.

it is not a good idea to grid bolt. the roost generally consists of unique strait lines.

lastly not that anyone has probably discussed this but "project draws" are different from "fixed draws" project draws get removed once the person who owns them send the route they are working.

all of this is a grey area. we should take each situation case by case.

i do not in any way want this post to be viewed as being emotional. i do not want it to be incendiary. if anyone would like to personally get in touch with me my email is.

Andy Raether
rockclimbthis@gmail.com

i think as a community we can work together to find solutions to our problems.

also lastly this posting comes from someone who is not just a sport climber. i boulder(sometimes) have done lots of trad climbing and some mountains as well.

thank you.

"i will also give people bolts and hangers if they want them"

Thanks Andy, I'll take 500.

quoting: "Go up to one of those 14c's and chip out a few dozen incut jugs to make a 5.7 out of it and see how they like it when YOU disrespect the rock the same way they do." (only change i'd make is replace "rock" with 'first ascentionist')


i'm truly indifferent considering the outcome of this debate, it doesn't effect me.

HOWEVER, i'd never considered the point made by the above quote and it is a great point: very difficult to successfully refute... if this was debate class, i'd say that one won the exercise! LOL...

happy climbing!

jon