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Oct 8, 2012
Summit of Rainier.
When doing a route that requires a double rope rappel; what do u find is the easiest/ most convenient way to bring the second rope up? Tied on like a backpack, in a pack, over the shoulder, climb with both tied to the harness? Wondering what people with more experience find to be the best way. Mike Belu
From Indianapolis, IN
Joined Jun 3, 2012
136 points
Oct 8, 2012
Depends the rope diameter for the second rope. If you have a tag line (<7mm), then you can carry it. If you use regular climbing rope, then tied into both. divnamite
From New York, NY
Joined Aug 1, 2007
213 points
Oct 8, 2012
this works for me

- tie the rope to a locker and clip it to the back of the leader's harness ... when doing full length pitches its a biatch IMO to have 15+ lbs dangling between yr legs, i prefer some of it to dangle from my rear loop ... ive also found that having it on the rear loops keeps a bit more of the rope off the rock sometimes with less resulting drag

- occasionally on traversing pitches, clip an extra draw on a piece/bolt to keep the trailing rope from dangling too much or getting caught

- dont tie the second into the spare rope as the moment the leader gets up he will pull and flake the entire trailing rope into a sling ... its then all set for either a lead swap or block lead

whichever method you use, the key is neatness and practice so that it runs smooth like butter ;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
2,143 points
Oct 8, 2012
Summit of Rainier.
Thanks guys. I haven't used a smaller diameter static line (tag line) before; just 9mm+ ropes--tied together for the double rope rappel. You are tying the 7mm to the 9.8mm (for example) and rapping off both different diamters? No issue with the size difference, or static vs dynamic ropes on the rappel?

Sorry if this is a really basic question, just haven't done it before. I like the idea of saving the weight by using the 7mm.

Thanks,

Mike
Mike Belu
From Indianapolis, IN
Joined Jun 3, 2012
136 points
Oct 8, 2012
i use a 8mm half rope as the trailing rope and a 9.5mm as my main ... i just tie the 2 with an EDK ...

the reason i would rather have a 8mm half for the trailing is that there is a not insignificant chance that your rope can get stuck on rap especially with crack climbs ... at worst i can lead up on the half rope if needed ... your ATC will slip more on the smaller rope, you can simply use a prussik if yr worried

if you get a static line make sure you get it ~10% longer than the main to account for rope stretch and the tendency for the rope to slip more on the thinner line
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
2,143 points
Oct 8, 2012
OTL
I find it most comfortable and easiest to exchange by tossing the rope into an ultralight pack (I use a Marmot Kompressor). Trailing gets annoying (on wandering pitches) and the second should be the mule anyways.
Just this weekend I flaked it into the pack, tied off the end and after joining our ropes for the rap, tossed the pack. It worked great as a clean, precise rope toss; un-flaking easily despite being tightly stuffed into the pack.
Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Joined Oct 20, 2010
501 points
Administrator
Oct 8, 2012
Pimpin.  6b+
One of many options:
Lead with a skinny single (Beal Joker 9.1)
Carry super skinny twin in the pack (tendon master 7.8)

With 50m ropes, which are actually useful over here, this is a light setup that allows for some redundancy. EDK, pull either side, no problems.
Dan Flynn
From MA
Joined May 5, 2009
4,415 points
Administrator
Oct 8, 2012
Starting out on the crux traverse  Photo by Alasta...
Just use double ropes - it has it's advantages for rock as well as ice climbing ;) I guess that's just the norm here in the UK so I've got used to it Nick Russell
From Bristol, UK
Joined Sep 1, 2011
2,694 points
Oct 8, 2012
Tag lines can be great but be sure to have someone show you how to rap properly with them (it's often called a Reepschnur Rappel, I believe). It's very, very important to back up the system properly when using this system.

Other note is to consider the type of raps you are doing. If there is a high chance of the rope getting stuck when you pull it down, I'd stick with a double-rope system (as you don't want to be using a tag line to climb back up the rock to free the stuck rope). If the raps are clean, the tag line can be a nice way to save a few pounds.
BoulderCharles
Joined Sep 22, 2011
26 points
Oct 8, 2012
Who else but the British lug two 50m ropes up to a 45-foot crag? Love it. Rob Dillon
Joined Mar 22, 2002
1,010 points
Oct 8, 2012
Owens Gorge.  Mt Tom in background.
I carry a 7.5 mm x 60 m Mammut Twilight in a BD Bullet pack. Second carrys the pack. There's enough room left over to stuff a liter of water, couple of bars and windshirts. Zirkel
From Bishop, CA
Joined Mar 18, 2007
130 points
Oct 8, 2012
Zirkel wrote:
I carry a 7.5 mm x 60 m Mammut Twilight in a BD Bullet pack. Second carrys the pack. There's enough room left over to stuff a liter of water, couple of bars and windshirts.


Same here. 8mm tag line in a BD Bullet Pack.

Previous poster says "always pull the thinner rope". Why? I alternate, threading the one I am pulling through the rings to expedite the process. Am I missing something? Only reason I see easier to pull tag line is it is static and you dont have stretch.

Never really had any issue tying the two together. 10.2 climbing rope and 8 tag line. EDK or double fisherman.
Chris Massey
Joined Oct 1, 2012
16 points
Oct 8, 2012
NCTRAD wrote:
Previous poster says "always pull the thinner rope". Why? I alternate, threading the one I am pulling through the rings to expedite the process. Am I missing something? Only reason I see easier to pull tag line is it is static and you dont have stretch. Never really had any issue tying the two together. 10.2 climbing rope and 8 tag line. EDK or double fisherman.


I usually pull the thinner one because there is less chance for it to get tangled up this way.
If you pull the fat rope, half of the skinny rope will come flying down and is more likely to get to wrap around flakes and shrubbery. Been there done that.

Pulling a skinny rope that isn't truly static can absolutely suck though, so for really straightforward raps with little chance of getting anything stuck you may wish to just chance it and pull the fat rope.
andrewc
Joined Jul 31, 2008
0 points
Oct 8, 2012
...
"I usually pull the thinner one because there is less chance for it to get tangled up this way.".

SIDE NOTE:

That AIN'T the reason for pulling the skinny one...
Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Joined Oct 13, 2002
2,394 points
Oct 8, 2012
Summit of Rainier.
Appreciate the replies. I think I'll wait until my next guided trip to learn the Reepschnur Rappel. Using an 8mm twin/half tied with an EDK and running both through the ATC seems like the best rapping option for me right now. Mike Belu
From Indianapolis, IN
Joined Jun 3, 2012
136 points
Oct 8, 2012
Cold day at Smug's
NCTRAD wrote:
Same here. 8mm tag line in a BD Bullet Pack. Previous poster says "always pull the thinner rope". Why? I alternate, threading the one I am pulling through the rings to expedite the process. Am I missing something? Only reason I see easier to pull tag line is it is static and you dont have stretch. Never really had any issue tying the two together. 10.2 climbing rope and 8 tag line. EDK or double fisherman.

The skinny rope provides less friction and will move through the device faster. This can cause the knot to creep as you rap and your ends to become uneven. Pulling the skinny rope will place the knot on the side such that the knot will have to pull through the anchor in order for the rope to creep like that. If this is a real concern with the combination that you are using, IMO it is a better idea to use a block of some sort (just as you would if rapping with a Grigri) and not rely on the knot not being able to pull through the anchor. Especially if using a pull cord so skinny that it is essentially not weight bearing.
csproul
From Davis, CA
Joined Dec 3, 2009
218 points
Oct 8, 2012
Good article on the Reepschnur Rappel. Not sure why you would want to just rap one of the cords, unless you really like using a Cinch or Grigri to rap single lines. I dont like the idea of the rings holding back the knot, but the backup suggested in this article would be mandatory for me. Worth your time to read.

rockandice.com/articles/how-to...
Chris Massey
Joined Oct 1, 2012
16 points
Oct 8, 2012
Cold day at Smug's
NCTRAD wrote:
Good article on the Reepschnur Rappel. Not sure why you would want to just rap one of the cords, unless you really like using a Cinch or Grigri to rap single lines. I dont like the idea of the rings holding back the knot, but the backup suggested in this article would be mandatory for me. Worth your time to read. rockandice.com/articles/how-to...
.


If the pull rope is skinny enough compared to the primary line, you are in effect rapping on a single line anyway whether you thread it through your device or not. The primary line will be supporting most all of your weight as compared to the pull line. I agree that a Reepschnur type block is a very good idea and to not rely on the inability of the knot to pull through the rings
csproul
From Davis, CA
Joined Dec 3, 2009
218 points
Oct 8, 2012
Got it!
Locker wrote:
"I usually pull the thinner one because there is less chance for it to get tangled up this way.". SIDE NOTE: That AIN'T the reason for pulling the skinny one...


Now I'm interested. Would you also tell us WHAT the reason is? It surely has the disadvantage that in case the rope gets stuck half way, you cannot lead up on the tag line.
Matthias Lang
From Albuquerque
Joined Nov 7, 2010
102 points
Oct 8, 2012
Just a few more moves... Thanks to Eric for hangin...
Matthias Lang wrote:
Now I'm interested. Would you also tell us WHAT the reason is? It surely has the disadvantage that in case the rope gets stuck half way, you cannot lead up on the tag line.


Csproul just explained the most important reason a couple posts up.
nbrown
From western NC
Joined Nov 6, 2007
5,107 points
Oct 8, 2012
Got it!
nbrown wrote:
Csproul just explained the most important reason a couple posts up.


Thanks, guess I didn't read it carefully enough.
Matthias Lang
From Albuquerque
Joined Nov 7, 2010
102 points
Oct 9, 2012
Nick Russell wrote:
Just use double ropes - it has it's advantages for rock as well as ice climbing ;) I guess that's just the norm here in the UK so I've got used to it


+1
Hans
From Squamish, BC
Joined Oct 14, 2007
1,211 points
Oct 9, 2012
Rewritten
Nick Russell wrote:
Just use double ropes - it has it's advantages for rock as well as ice climbing ;) I guess that's just the norm here in the UK so I've got used to it


+1

I never understood people carrying a second rope or a tag line instead of doubles. Carrying a second full rope is a ton of extra weight... and a double rope system is far more versatile than a tag line system, and often weighs close to the same... in case of emergency, you can lead on a single half rope(if one rope gets stuck).
Julius Beres
From Boulder, CO
Joined Jun 27, 2008
210 points
Oct 9, 2012
Cold day at Smug's
Julius Beres wrote:
+1 I never understood people carrying a second rope or a tag line instead of doubles. Carrying a second full rope is a ton of extra weight... and a double rope system is far more versatile than a tag line system, and often weighs close to the same... in case of emergency, you can lead on a single half rope(if one rope gets stuck).

It's really not that hard to understand why people often use a 2nd full rope. Not everyone already has a set of doubles/twins. The vast majority of climbers climb on a single rope. What to do if you need a double rope rappel? Buy two ropes...or use what you already own, a single rope and older single rope?

I own a couple sets of double ropes that I've retired from lead use. The only thing they are good for is as a second rope for double rope rappels. Since double rope raps are more the exception than the rule here in the South, I'm not going to invest in a new set of double ropes. I'm going to use what I have on hand.
csproul
From Davis, CA
Joined Dec 3, 2009
218 points
Oct 9, 2012
Julius Beres wrote:
+1 I never understood people carrying a second rope or a tag line instead of doubles. Carrying a second full rope is a ton of extra weight... and a double rope system is far more versatile than a tag line system, and often weighs close to the same... in case of emergency, you can lead on a single half rope(if one rope gets stuck).



4 reasons

- wear ... single ropes last longer, if you constantly do long multi every day like they do in yos or some people in squamish, your doubles wont last as long ... especially if your partner is less than stellar at following you and hangs constantly ...

- cost ... related to the above, i can buy a single rope for 85$ here ... the cheapest individual doubles are ~ $160 ... so for the price of a set of doubles i can get 4 singles ... i climb 5 days a week and can wear out a rope in few months .... the math is obvious

- whippers ... if you climb at yr limit and are projecting stuff on multi, not just a run up something well within yr abilities ... i prefer to take multiple falls on a singles for the rope longevity ...

- aid ... theres routes out here and in yos with occasional aid which IMO is easier on singles ... pendulums are epecially hard on doubles IMO with their thinner shealth ...

now lets be clear i DO own doubles and DO use them on moderate long terrain or where they are called for ... but my personal preference here is for a single and a thin half rope trailer ...

just because someone doesnt do it your way doesnt mean its wrong ... its very telling that in the mecca of multipitch, yos, many of whom require 2 ropes ... most climbers, and some very good ones, use singles ... they know what they are doing, except on MP of course ;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
2,143 points
Oct 9, 2012
Summit of Rainier.
When you guys climb on doubles or twins, do you have any issues with not having enough friction if you belay the second coming up with a Guide ATC? If you were using the sterling photon 7.8, for example. Mike Belu
From Indianapolis, IN
Joined Jun 3, 2012
136 points


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