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Carabiner keepers on quickdraws? What do you use?

Original Post
Fortuna Wolf · · Durham, NC · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 20

Got done sewing myself some quickdraws and alpine slings (yeah yeah, I'm gonna die). I don't like how the biners are rotating on the quick draws though (I understand that that's just something I'll have to deal with on the alpine draws).
Anyone have any suggestions on where to get affordable keepers?

Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50
amazon.com/uxcell®-Rubber-Dollars-Elastic-Stretchable/dp/B01BI6U9QY/
Fortuna Wolf · · Durham, NC · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 20

are those going to melt or crack in a year?

James T · · Livermore · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 80

You can find rubber o-rings at your local hardware store in various sizes for cheap and in large quantities. More durable than rubber bands

O-ring

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
James T wrote:You can find rubber o-rings at your local hardware store in various sizes for cheap and in large quantities. More durable than rubber bands
This.
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

Other durable options: slices of bicycle inner tube. Hair elastics.

Ryan Hamilton · · Orem · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 5
Fortuna Wolf wrote:Got done sewing myself some quickdraws and alpine slings (yeah yeah, I'm gonna die). I don't like how the biners are rotating on the quick draws though (I understand that that's just something I'll have to deal with on the alpine draws). Anyone have any suggestions on where to get affordable keepers?
But seriously, you're going to die. Did you use an industrial machine to properly bar tack these?
Fortuna Wolf · · Durham, NC · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 20

no, but I did do research into it. Bar tacks aren't the only stitching method. I put at least 210 stitches in, each of which holds 26 lbs minimum (tested multiple times). The webbing is rated to 15kn, so I've got at least 65% more strength in the stitching. And the webbing really only needs to hold 10kn before the biners break.

Bicycle tube sounds good. Just cut it into rings like a rubber band?
O-rings are also a good option. They are generally made of very high quality materials. Something like a 1 inch ID?

Ryan Hamilton · · Orem · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 5
Fortuna Wolf wrote:no, but I did do research into it. Bar tacks aren't the only stitching method. I put at least 210 stitches in, each of which holds 26 lbs minimum (tested multiple times). The webbing is rated to 15kn, so I've got at least 65% more strength in the stitching. And the webbing really only needs to hold 10kn before the biners break. Bicycle tube sounds good. Just cut it into rings like a rubber band? O-rings are also a good option. They are generally made of very high quality materials. Something like a 1 inch ID?
Ok... I don't want to be they guy raking you over the coals, you're free to do what you want. Couple of things though, most biners are rated to 22kn, with the gate closed (you didn't make carabiners too did you?) Most commercial sewn webbing is rated to 22kn as well. Just tell your climbing partners that you made the stuff before they risk their life on it. Sorry, still cringing at the thought, I'm going walk away now. Sincere wishes that you don't get hurt.
Fortuna Wolf · · Durham, NC · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 20

Hey, no problem. I'm used to getting funny looks. I'll pass on making the biners myself, but sewing is easy.
The biners I'm using are rated to 20kn. The webbing is 15kn, so the loop of webbing is 30kn. Since the webbing needs to only match the biner to 20kn the sewing only needs to hold 10kn. I put in enough stitches to hold 25kn.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Ryan Hamilton wrote: But seriously, you're going to die. Did you use an industrial machine to properly bar tack these?
I have a Mammut 22kN dogbone here that has no bartacks. Just a bunch of back-and-forth lines of stitching. 24 rows of 6 stitches/row, to be precise.
BrokenChairs 88 · · Denver, CO · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 240
Fortuna Wolf wrote:Got done sewing myself some quickdraws and alpine slings (yeah yeah, I'm gonna die). I don't like how the biners are rotating on the quick draws though (I understand that that's just something I'll have to deal with on the alpine draws). Anyone have any suggestions on where to get affordable keepers?
Is there a paticular reason you're choosing to sew your own dog bones? I just looked at BD's website and you can buy them for 2.95 and they already have the rubber to hold the carabiners in place. I guess I just don't see the rational for choosing to go that route but like Ryan said you're free to do what you want and I second that you need to just be open to your partners that your gear in not CE UIAA certified nor has it gone through any QA or testing of any kind. Too me it just seems like the effort to obtain materials, sew, and the potential safety risks are not worth the 2.95 you're "saving". (quotes because you're still investing time in production and cost of materials)

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…
that guy named seb · · Britland · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 236
BrokenChairs wrote: Is there a paticular reason you're choosing to sew your own dog bones? I just looked at BD's website and you can buy them for 2.95 and they already have the rubber to hold the carabiners in place. I guess I just don't see the rational for choosing to go that route but like Ryan said you're free to do what you want and I second that you need to just be open to your partners that your gear in not CE UIAA certified nor has it gone through any QA or testing of any kind. Too me it just seems like the effort to obtain materials, sew, and the potential safety risks are not worth the 2.95 you're "saving". (quotes because you're still investing time in production and cost of materials) blackdiamondequipment.com/e…
^this
Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 151

If you are going to make your own gear, it is wise to buy the special synthetic thread that is UV rated from a quality fabrics shop. Also, getting the tension on the sewing machine just right and using a specific rounded tip needle so webbing isn't damaged is important.

As for saving money, it has to cost more buying individual biners and all the supplies. Factory draws can be had for cheap when buying packs. Dog bones are also cheap or free on the sale forum.

Props for being able o make your own gear, it is how all our gear came to be. I personally would just buy something like this.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

Props for making your own gear, I think it's a good way to get some "hands on" experience and a good learning opportunity. However, I think it's worth testing at least one of them for the extra peace of mind, especially if your partners also use the draws.

If you have access to a dynamometer, this can easily be pull tested with a car. If not, I've heard the user 20kn here will test stuff for people with his set-up. I'd try to get in contact with him.

As for the original question, I'd go with the O rings or maybe even sew the webbing tight enough that a rubber keeper isn't needed. I have some Omega Pacific dogbones where the webbing is sewn in a very tight loop on one end that keeps the biner fixed in place without and rubber keeper.

Fortuna Wolf · · Durham, NC · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 20

Eli, thanks for the tip about that user. I'll try to get in contact with him to ask him. I do have a hanging scale which I've used to test out the strength of individual stitches which is where I got the 26lbs per stitch number. My scale just won't handle 3300lbs to test the full sling strength.

I do it because its fun and I like sewing, not to save money. I do have some commercial slings and dogbones that I'll use if any partners ask me to.

I use #92 polyester UV rated outdoor upholstery thread. The thread itself tests to 14lbs, but each stitch is two threads, hence the 26lb test. The sling material is nylon coated dyneema core.

Squeak · · Perth West OZ · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 21
Fortuna Wolf wrote:Eli, thanks for the tip about that user. I'll try to get in contact with him to ask him. I do have a hanging scale which I've used to test out the strength of individual stitches which is where I got the 26lbs per stitch number. My scale just won't handle 3300lbs to test the full sling strength. I do it because its fun and I like sewing, not to save money. I do have some commercial slings and dogbones that I'll use if any partners ask me to. I use #92 polyester UV rated outdoor upholstery thread. The thread itself tests to 14lbs, but each stitch is two threads, hence the 26lb test. The sling material is nylon coated dyneema core.
Can you post up some pics of your work?
I have no issue with people making their own kit. Folks have been doing it since the beginning of time. :)
You seem to be thinking things through and being willing to announce it on an open forum takes guts LOL :)
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

I don't really have any info to back it up but my intuition tells me the total strength of the stitching is more complicated than just the strength of one stitch * # of stitches. I'd imagine things such as location and pattern would have some kind of influence on the total strength.

Also, I'm not quite sure that the stitching strength is doubled like the webbing strength from being sewn into a loop and this might be influenced by stitching pattern. Again, this is all intuition speaking, so don't take my word for it, but you should research these things if you haven't already. I know CAMP has done research on stitching patterns for their tri-cams so they might be a good source of information. Also, they have used patterns other than the typical bartack so perhaps they might know things that other manufacturers wouldn't.

Finally, I too would love to see pics

James T · · Livermore · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 80
eli poss wrote: I'd imagine things such as location and pattern would have some kind of influence on the total strength.
Yeah theres definitely something to this. Some gents over at BPL did some pull tests on webbing tie-outs sewn into corners of tent fabric and found interesting results with bar tack vs x-box, etc.
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

You need to scroll down a little more than halfway to find some good info on stitching slings together.

bethandevans.com/load.htm

Fortuna Wolf · · Durham, NC · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 20
rocknice2 wrote:You need to scroll down a little more than halfway to find some good info on stitching slings together. bethandevans.com/load.htm
That's one of the pages that I read when I was researching sewing.
I use a minimum of 6 lines down the webbing (not across), with each line being about 2.5 inches long with at least 30 stitches in it. I pack as many lines in, but because the tension tightens the webbing it can become impossible to push a needle through it after 6-8 lines.

I've also had good results hand stitching cord together into loops and eyes using doubled up V92 thread or 100# test dyneema (the dyneema is very slippery and prefers to slip rather than break, you need to knot it or lock stitch it).
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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