By coldfinger
Jan 15, 2012
| It comes down to:
Whether you believe the first ascensionist should do whatever he/she wants or not?
That simple.
Is it a valid style?
From the Climbing flash: "It was way more bolts than we hoped to add, but the result is a safe and fun route...."
Some of us just find the line between sport (no risk) and ice/alpine (high risk) is being blurred, yeah maybe it's fine in an choss cave, how about when it hits the real world?
Figure four, clip a bolt, take, dog, repeat, got it wired, send ........... on Fitzroy?
Definitely takes a lot of skill, strength and stoke to do HARD mixed, but what happens when this becomes widespread and moderate, i.e. 5.7? What then?
Kinda think that's what I'd like to hear from y'all about. Interesting question. | 
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By JulianB
From Florence, SC
Jan 17, 2012
| coldfinger wrote: From the Climbing flash: "It was way more bolts than we hoped to add, but the result is a safe and fun route...." Some of us just find the line between sport (no risk) and ice/alpine (high risk) is being blurred, yeah maybe it's fine in an choss cave, how about when it hits the real world?
Not to disregard the rest of your post which is interesting and makes good points (but would take longer to respond to than I have at the moment), but I think you've taken their words a bit out of a context here.
"Way more bolts than we hoped to add" amounts to 16 bolts in 4 pitches (with belays), so an average of 4 bolts per pitch over hundreds of feet of climbing.
"Safe and fun" seems to be them just being modest and staying positive. The Stanley Headwall is a scary, committing environment no matter what. Is it "safe"? Have a look at some stories on Raphael Slawinski's blog about trying this route (and others) on the Stanley Headwall and nearly getting taken out by avalanches.
I don't think routes like "Man Yoga" are a good indication of any creep of sport climbing mentality into the alpine (other than the athletic ability required to climb steep M7/8 mixed in a big alpine setting). |
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By J. Fox
From Black Hawk, CO
Jan 17, 2012
| Wait, what's the problem here? Little scratches on rock are not pretty, or they prevent one from climbing a route with their hands? |
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By coldfinger
Jan 17, 2012
| J. Fox wrote: Wait, what's the problem here? Little scratches on rock are not pretty, or they prevent one from climbing a route with their hands?
So one argument in favor I've heard OVER and OVER is that the current Dry Tool crags (remember we're not talking crags with a good MIX of rock and ice) are Choss that no one would want to climb anyway.
Ok, I think there's a BIG problem with the "choss argument." If Dry Tooling crags become accepted, moderate AND widespread, my question is this: is climbing choss REALLY A GOOD IDEA?
As in how many folks are going to get hurt/killed as rock comes tumbling down and even with the bolt attached?
Also as in, how "SAFE AND FUN" is that kinda crag?
Besides, another major argument in favor of dry tool crags is that it will develop the sport of alpine climbing as a good place to "practice". (Kinda like proponents of bouldering say) This argument naturally predicts much more widespread dry tooling and damage in more mainstream areas.
I just sense that if this discilpine becomes widespread, it will involve more solid and moderate rock and then we get back into direct conflict with other climbers, other recreational users, other uses AND land managers.
You say just a few little scratches, but how about after twenty years of continuous use?
Not to be a downer, but the last great ethical debate in climbing was the hammerless, clean climbing revolution. Unfortunately, climbers didn't change their methods (largely for technological reasons, i.e. clean gear didn't exist) until after a long period of rock damage. It seems like we have the opportunity to look forward and see what this development means twenty years down the road.
There are environmental, ethical and style issues here. But there is also an important question of technology and technique.
It is undeniably true that there ARE technological improvements that can be made for dry tool specific tools and technology that would minimize (or even eliminate) the undeniable destructive traits that modern dry tooling tools have. After all, folks are using ICE TOOLS, i.e. equipment that really wasn't designed and manufactured with pure dry tooling in mind.
I'd just like to see the climbing community solve that problem proactively, and not retroactively. |
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