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Bowline tie in knot..
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By KENtucky
From Richmond, Ky
Aug 30, 2011
FAIL <br />

I know how to tie a bowline and though the tie in loops too.. but how do i finish the knot with a stopper knot- kinda like the double fisherman after a figure 8 follow through. Anybody know what im talkin about>?


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By Greg D
From Here
Aug 30, 2011
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

ilclimberken wrote:
I know how to tie a bowline and though the tie in loops too.. but how do i finish the knot with a stopper knot- kinda like the double fisherman after a figure 8 follow through. Anybody know what im talkin about>?


Stick to an eight. The back up knot on the bowline is not a back up. It is a critical part of the knot. Nobody will be impressed by your bowline anyway.


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By KENtucky
From Richmond, Ky
Aug 30, 2011
FAIL <br />

im not trying to impress anyone, just looking for a little less bulk..


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By Keenan Waeschle
From Bozeman, MT
Aug 30, 2011
on top of the RNWF <br />June 2012

ilclimberken wrote:
im not trying to impress anyone, just looking for a little less bulk..


not only is it less bulky, it's easier to untie after you fall on it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_bowline

tie that, then put a double fishermans in to make sure it doesn't come undone, check it every so often so that it stays tight and attached to you. fig-8s suck


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By KENtucky
From Richmond, Ky
Aug 30, 2011
FAIL <br />

Thanx keenan.. yosemite bowline was the key for my search.. thanx again folks


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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Aug 30, 2011
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord

+1 on the bowline tie in.

that is all.


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By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Aug 30, 2011
Me and my Fetish I guess.. ;)

I start with the slipknot/poke-through/invert method of doing a bowline, then follow it back through the harness, follow through and finish with an overhand or sometimes a fisherman's.

Couldn't find a complete walkthrough for what i mean but here is a guy showing the first part of the knot:



(video embed link not working so search "Speedy Bowline Tying Trick" on youtube)

That's knot :) enough knot for me so I go a bit further...

Do those steps, however pull up more than just 'to the nipples' as he mentions in the video (about twice as much). Then after he's done, follow back through your harness with the tail end, trace it back through and finish off with a fisherman's. You'll end up with a very clean palstek with two passes through the harness.

Essentially, you're creating a bowline on a bight but without doing it from a bight; rather with a single strand.

Quick, bomber, won't weld together like an 8. If it comes untied, you did something terribly wrong and should probably stick to an 8, 9, etc.. ;)

Should look like this:
Double palstek.
Double palstek.

Double palstek.
Double palstek.


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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Aug 30, 2011
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan

I used to use the bowline a lot climbing in the gym and sport climbing, but I don't really understand why people think its preferable to a figure 8. It has a record of coming untied at inopportune times, and its not as easy to check.

Sure, its a little easier to untie, but are figure 8's really that hard to untie after some average sized falls?

I switched back to using an 8 exclusively.


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By Joe Huggins
From Grand Junction
Aug 30, 2011
mmmm....tree

fanky wrote:
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Does this make any sense to anyone?

Anyway, the bowline w/Yosemite bend is great:bomber, low bulk and easy to untie, even after a solid weld.


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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Aug 30, 2011
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan

Joe Huggins wrote:
Does this make any sense to anyone? Anyway, the bowline w/Yosemite bend is great:bomber, low bulk and easy to untie, even after a solid weld.


Thats just spam. Don't click on the links.


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By bradyk
Aug 30, 2011

Bowline is not only the most superior knot, it makes you look cool too. I get tons of crag-hags just because I tie in with the bowline.

The force it would take to make a properly tied bowline fail would rip a body in half.

I wrap two loops. Bunny goes in the hole around the tree and back out the hole the opposite way. Then I put a fisherman's knot behind the two loops.(not a double fisherman's, that is for connecting two ends of a rope)

Bomber


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By Joe Huggins
From Grand Junction
Aug 30, 2011
mmmm....tree

Phil Lauffen wrote:
Thats just spam. Don't click on the links.

It was a rhetorical question; I was bemused by the combination of farce (Howard Roark/Ayn Rand), hackneyed horror (Koontz) and serious shit (safe Asian "escorts"). The reality that someone, somewhere, goes to the effort to spread such useless dreck is pathetic. Fanky should probably kill himself.


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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Aug 30, 2011
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan

Joe Huggins wrote:
It was a rhetorical question; I was bemused by the combination of farce (Howard Roark/Ayn Rand), hackneyed horror (Koontz) and serious shit (safe Asian "escorts"). The reality that someone, somewhere, goes to the effort to spread such useless dreck is pathetic. Fanky should probably kill himself.


Haha you got me. It was a weird combo.


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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Aug 30, 2011
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan

bradyk wrote:
Bowline is not only the most superior knot, it makes you look cool too. I get tons of crag-hags just because I tie in with the bowline. The force it would take to make a properly tied bowline fail would rip a body in half. I wrap two loops. Bunny goes in the hole around the tree and back out the hole the opposite way. Then I put a fisherman's knot behind the two loops.(not a double fisherman's, that is for connecting two ends of a rope) Bomber


I don't think anybody is doubting the strength of the knot. The double bowline has come untied too many times for it to be coincidence. Most likely the reason it comes untied is some combination of user error and a stiff rope, but its just not worth it when the figure 8 is just as good.


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By coloradotomontana
Aug 30, 2011
me

If you dont want the figure 8 to be bulky, don't tie it like a moron. If you want to be able to untie it after you fall, get stronger. that is all.


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By Rocky_Mtn_High
From Arvada, CO
Aug 30, 2011
Lamb's Slide

I switched to the Yosemite Bowline after reading Craig Connally's explanation in The Mountaineering Handbook about why he has been using it for decades:
- fastest to tie
- easiest to untie, especially when wet or frozen
- easiest to tie quickly and correctly, in the dark, in the rain, or with one hand
- strongest
- simplest, so easiest to inspect by skilled practitioners
- secure against triaxial loading (unlike the 8)

The only disadvantage compared to the 8 is that it is not familiar to most climbers, so you need to double-check your tie-in yourself.

When you learn to tie it with a flip of the wrist and weave, you don't need to remember any of that "rabbit out of the hole and around the tree" stuff.

Oh, and the bowline stopper knot is a superior rappel stopper knot -- quick, secure, and bulky (just tie an overhand, and weave the tag end around the standing end and back through the overhand).


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By Joe Huggins
From Grand Junction
Aug 30, 2011
mmmm....tree

Pat Erley wrote:
If you dont want the figure 8 to be bulky, don't tie it like a moron. If you want to be able to untie it after you fall, get stronger. that is all.

Yeah, thanks. I wasted oxygen reading that


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By Jay Samuelson
From Denver CO
Aug 30, 2011
sweet boulder

funny how the bowline is so much better that people feel the need to tie it twice to make sure it doesn't slip or come untied. Quite a bit more bulky than a figure 8 once you've re-traced the thing as well...


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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Aug 30, 2011
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan

r_m_high wrote:
I switched to the Yosemite Bowline after reading Craig Connally's explanation in The Mountaineering Handbook about why he has been using it for decades: - fastest to tie - easiest to untie, especially when wet or frozen - easiest to tie quickly and correctly, in the dark, in the rain, or with one hand - strongest - simplest, so easiest to inspect by skilled practitioners - secure against triaxial loading (unlike the 8) The only disadvantage compared to the 8 is that it is not familiar to most climbers, so you need to double-check your tie-in yourself. When you learn to tie it with a flip of the wrist and weave, you don't need to remember any of that "rabbit out of the hole and around the tree" stuff. Oh, and the bowline stopper knot is a superior rappel stopper knot -- quick, secure, and bulky (just tie an overhand, and weave the tag end around the standing end and back through the overhand).


All of those reasons are subjective... I don't think the bowline is fastest to untie(how long does it take you to tie a knot anyways?), easiest to untie(is it really that hard to untie a figure 8?), in the dark(I think its easier to inspect the figure 8 by feel than the bowline).

EDK is the best rap knot, but thats a different thread.


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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Aug 30, 2011
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan

Pat Erley wrote:
If you dont want the figure 8 to be bulky, don't tie it like a moron. If you want to be able to untie it after you fall, get stronger. that is all.


Dude if you fell on a figure 8 it would be impossible to untie, you so fat.


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By Copperhead
Aug 30, 2011

So you all think the bowline is clearly superior, but somehow has been rejected by the majority of climbers?


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By Joe Huggins
From Grand Junction
Aug 30, 2011
mmmm....tree

Copperhead wrote:
So you all think the bowline is clearly superior, but somehow has been rejected by the majority of climbers?

Cause it's so easy to see when it's correct

EDIT
I remember a point around 1980 when there was this trend; a figure eight tie in. "Everybody's doin' it". I learned how to tie in with my first Goldline using a double Bowline. Never had any issues with failures. I went along with the trend and used the figure eight for thirty or so years. Recently got tired of struggling and noticed Erickson using a Bowline. I'll never(?)go back to the eight.


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By JoeP
From Littleton, CO
Aug 30, 2011

Another benefit to the bowline is that once untied from the harness, it is untied completely. No remaining knot in the rope to worry about - I'm sure we've all had the pleasure of someone pulling the rope but having forgot to remove the other half of a figure 8.


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By dorseyec
Aug 30, 2011

Keenan Waeschle wrote:
check it every so often so that it stays tight and attached to you. fig-8s suck


Hmm sounds like a great knot! Once I tie my figure 8 I never have to "check it every so often to make sure it doesn't come untied". Plus how is your partner supposed to check that your bowline is tied correctly when most people have no idea how to do one? Is a figure 8 with yosemite finish really that bulky?


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By Copperhead
Aug 30, 2011

Joe Huggins wrote:
Cause it's so easy to see when it's correct EDIT I remember a point around 1980 when there was this trend; a figure eight tie in. "Everybody's doin' it". I learned how to tie in with my first Goldline using a double Bowline. Never had any issues with failures. I went along with the trend and used the figure eight for thirty or so years. Recently got tired of struggling and noticed Erickson using a Bowline. I'll never(?)go back to the eight.


You can see it as a trend or a large user base applying collective wisdom to decision making. I think in this case it is the latter, as fashion just doesn't apply (who is impressed with a tie in knot?). The merits of the figure 8 outweigh the merits of the bowline.


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By Rocky_Mtn_High
From Arvada, CO
Aug 30, 2011
Lamb's Slide

Phil Lauffen wrote:
All of those reasons are subjective... I don't think the bowline is fastest to untie(how long does it take you to tie a knot anyways?), easiest to untie(is it really that hard to untie a figure 8?), in the dark(I think its easier to inspect the figure 8 by feel than the bowline). EDK is the best rap knot, but thats a different thread.


Yes, those reasons are mostly subjective, but in my experience they bear out in practice (I'll race ya! :-) . For sure, an 8 that was loaded (through a fall or by lowering) is often much more difficult to untie than a Yosemite bowline. But of course it is still a matter of preference, and I'm not advocating that everyone switch -- an 8 is a safe and standard tie-in knot -- just letting folks know why I choose to use a good alternative.

I've never seen a Yosemite bowline loosen. You can always tie it off with a grapevine safety knot (half a double fisherman's) if you are paranoid (I often do).

WRT to the bowline stopper knot, I was referring to the stopper safety knot one should tie at the bottom of one's rappel ropes, not the knot used for tying two ropes together (but you are right, that's a topic for a different thread).


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