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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Nov 21, 2012

kennoyce wrote:
I generally pay around $2.50 per 3/8" stainless bolt/hanger combo, so I wouldn't purchase these if they were much more than that.

But I am assuming you are using wedge bolts. These are not wedge bolts and thus by nature will be more expensive. The 3/8" stainless steel Power-Bolt and matching hanger easily runs $5 a bolt MSRP.


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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Nov 21, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks

20 kN wrote:
But I am assuming you are using wedge bolts. These are not wedge bolts and thus by nature will be more expensive. The 3/8" stainless steel Power-Bolt and matching hanger easily runs $5 a bolt MSRP.


Right, power-bolts are way, way, way, way overpriced, I understand that a sleve bolt will be more expensive which is why I said that I wouldn't buy these if they are much more expensive than a wedge bolt.

You can easily find 3/8" stainless sleve anchors (the kind with the hex nut instead of a hex bolt like the power-bolt) for around a buck each (not that I've ever used this type of anchor), so the sleve can't be that expensive to make. A 5/16" stainless hex bolt costs less than 50 cents (retail), and I'm sure that you could manufacture the threaded cone for less than a quarter each so we'll call it 50 cents retail (probably a high estimate). Looking at these prices I just don't see a reason for a sleve anchor like this to retail for more than about $1.50, add $2 for the hanger, and I'd put a max price on a 3/8" combo of $3.50. Half inch will obviously use more material, so bump it up by a buck.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Nov 21, 2012

John Byrnes wrote:
Yes, but mostly No. If you read Angele's article, or listen closely to the video in The Thaitanium Project DVD, you'll then see that it's not seawater, seawater aerosols, or swimming pool water that causes SCC in climbing bolts. That's the long-standing myth. Marine Grade 316 stainless is called that because it has excellent resistance to SCC in seawater! What Angele found is that it's rainwater that is the culprit. Rainwater, often accelerated by rotting vegetation and the carbonic acid it produces, dissolves limestone producing CaCl2 and MgCl2, which is carried to the bolts either on the rock's surface or behind it. When the rain evaporates, it leaves these salts on the bolt, and SCC starts. This is why inland crags area, such as in Cuba, have SCC too. ASTM standard G36 involves boiling the metal in MgCl2. The 316 stainless cracks in 4.5hrs. The Ti alloys, both Type 2 and 6,4, show NO signs of cracking even after an exhausing 670hrs, or 28 DAYS! Not only do they have no cracks, they look brand new. On Cayman Brac, the oldest bolts are now 13 years old and they look brand new. So, do you have data on the 2205 boiling in MgCl2? That would be a good indicator of how it will perform in field, without endangering anyone's life.

I am aware of the rotting limestone issue and I know that the phenomenon has a large effect on SCC in Thailand. But your statement is not valid for all areas. First off, how is rioting limestone causing CaCl2 and MgCl2 going to affect SCC on bolts in swimming pools? The bolts I was referring to in swimming pools are structural bolts that dont even get exposed to rain water in the first place. Also, only a few areas have rotting limestone. Hawaii does not have any limestone, it is almost all basalt, but we still have SCC despite the lack of limestone producing CaCl2 and MgCl2. SCC also occurs in bolts placed in concrete that never comes into contact with rotting plants, limestone or rainwater.

So CaCl2 and MgCl2 may be the primary cause of SCC in Thailand, but it is not the primary cause of SCC everywhere. Just plan old salt from the ocean or chlorine from a pool is sufficient to induce SCC as is proven by the existence of SCC in bolts that do not reside in limestone cliffs. Furthermore, SCC is not the only issue, equally as serious is pitting. Pitting has been responsible for two bolt failures in Hawaii. Pitting most certainly can occur from salt air alone, again as proven by the fact that we have pitting in Hawaii despite the lack of limestone.

Also, awhile back BlueWater Ropes put me in touch with one of their marine experts, and the guy studies at MIT. He clearly stated that rain water is useful in most areas in that it cycles the salt off the bolts. However, I can see how rainwater is harmful in Thailand to their limestone environment, but not all marine environments are like Thailand's.

This may help you a bit: www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=958

Lastly, I am not saying that 2205 is appropriate for Thailand, I have no idea if it is or not. I am simply saying that it does exhibit good corrosion resistance to chloride induced SCC in most environments. I am interested in knowing the PREN value for Jim's 2205 bolts.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Nov 21, 2012

kennoyce wrote:
Right, power-bolts are way, way, way, way overpriced, I understand that a sleve bolt will be more expensive which is why I said that I wouldn't buy these if they are much more expensive than a wedge bolt. You can easily find 3/8" stainless sleve anchors (the kind with the hex nut instead of a hex bolt like the power-bolt) for around a buck each (not that I've ever used this type of anchor), so the sleve can't be that expensive to make. A 5/16" stainless hex bolt costs less than 50 cents (retail), and I'm sure that you could manufacture the threaded cone for less than a quarter each so we'll call it 50 cents retail (probably a high estimate). Looking at these prices I just don't see a reason for a sleve anchor like this to retail for more than about $1.50, add $2 for the hanger, and I'd put a max price on a 3/8" combo of $3.50. Half inch will obviously use more material, so bump it up by a buck.


So you'd rather go on the cheap, create a hole we cannot re-use and put the climbing community on the hook for replacing your bolt with a new, properly replaceable bolt in a new hole rather than use a technology that would allow us to re-use your hole without further scarring the rock?

Yes, it will be more expensive. Yes, it is worth it.

By the way, I'm not sure where you get your pricing, but a quick glance around the interwebs didnt show me anywhere where I could get a stainless hex bolt for $0.50/each. Certainly not a 4" long one, such as the one in the video.

Finally, wedge bolts are an abomination and should not ever be used for rock climbing. That they are cheap is their only redeeming quality. If you cannot hope to re-use the hole, there is no point in using that style of bolt.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Nov 21, 2012

kennoyce wrote:
Right, power-bolts are way, way, way, way overpriced, I understand that a sleve bolt will be more expensive which is why I said that I wouldn't buy these if they are much more expensive than a wedge bolt. You can easily find 3/8" stainless sleve anchors (the kind with the hex nut instead of a hex bolt like the power-bolt) for around a buck each (not that I've ever used this type of anchor), so the sleve can't be that expensive to make. A 5/16" stainless hex bolt costs less than 50 cents (retail), and I'm sure that you could manufacture the threaded cone for less than a quarter each so we'll call it 50 cents retail (probably a high estimate). Looking at these prices I just don't see a reason for a sleve anchor like this to retail for more than about $1.50, add $2 for the hanger, and I'd put a max price on a 3/8" combo of $3.50. Half inch will obviously use more material, so bump it up by a buck.

I can see your point. However, there are a few differences between climbing bolts and the shitty threaded rod sleeve bolts you were referring to. First, those crappy threaded rod sleeve bolts are likely produced in sweatshops, they are likely produced by the millions, and they probably have minimal to no quality control. Furthermore, really cheap ones might not even be made out of 304 stainless steel, they could be made out of some cheaper crappy grade of stainless steel, possibly something like 409 or 303 to make it easier to machine the cone, but I dont know. Lastly, it is possible they are not passified, which would reduce their corrosion resistance ability drastically. So the Home Depot bolts are cheaper because... well... they are cheap! But I am on your side, the less cash I have to pay out the happier I am. I fully support saving money when possible.


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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Nov 21, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks

John Wilder wrote:
So you'd rather go on the cheap, create a hole we cannot re-use and put the climbing community on the hook for replacing your bolt with a new, properly replaceable bolt in a new hole rather than use a technology that would allow us to re-use your hole without further scarring the rock? Yes, it will be more expensive. Yes, it is worth it. By the way, I'm not sure where you get your pricing, but a quick glance around the interwebs didnt show me anywhere where I could get a stainless hex bolt for $0.50/each. Certainly not a 4" long one, such as the one in the video. Finally, wedge bolts are an abomination and should not ever be used for rock climbing. That they are cheap is their only redeeming quality. If you cannot hope to re-use the hole, there is no point in using that style of bolt.


I certainly have to disagree with several of your points here. I never said I just want to go on the cheap, I'm just saying that there is no reason for a bolt like this to cost more than about $1.50 and I'd gladly pay that. The .50 price for a bolt is looking at a 5/16" by 2 3/4" bolt at mcmaster who isn't known for having amazing prices(personally I'm not interested in a 4" bolt since I don't bolt soft Red Rock sandstone).

In the climates and rock where I bolt, a stainless bolt is going to last probably 50 - 100 years (based on the fact that plated steel lasts a good 20 years), so if the wedge bolts have to be replaced once or twice a century, I'm not too worried about it, just tap the old bolt back into my overdrilled holes, cover it with a bit of epoxy putty, drill a new bolt 6 inches away and you'd never know that it wasn't the original. I understand that having a reusable hole is a nice thing, but imho it isn't a necessity.


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By dnoB ekiM
Nov 21, 2012
Wonderstuff

Thanks John, your party was a hit! Here is a quick demo video of the legacy bolt, we're making tweaks to the hanger and working on a price. I'll get back to everyone ASAP. Feel free to post up comments, critques, good or bad, i really want to know what everyone thinks.

>

Rad! I hope these get made soon and are competively priced!

The video makes a couple details hard to see...but wouldn't a dimpled hanger for a Triplex (and thus not putting the hanger through the sleeve) achieve the same purpose?

Replacable SS bolts are the ideal...if the obvious design weakness (hanger on sleeve or gap if placed in front of it) of the Triplex is overcome.

Here in the desert, stainless bolts will probably last WELL over 50 years...so a replacable one will make the same hole last for many generations. Even at Mt. Charleston (which has a good deal of moisture) the stainless bolts placed in the early 90's litterally look brand new. The carbons...not so much.

I expect that stainless bolts at Red Rocks (not in water steaks) could last 100 years...seriously!


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By Chris Vinson
Nov 21, 2012

Thanks for the feedback!

20kN, we're eletro-polishing these bad boys...


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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Nov 21, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks

20 kN wrote:
I can see your point. However, there are a few differences between climbing bolts and the shitty threaded rod sleeve bolts you were referring to. First, those crappy threaded rod sleeve bolts are likely produced in sweatshops, they are likely produced by the millions, and they probably have minimal to no quality control. Furthermore, really cheap ones might not even be made out of 304 stainless steel, they could be made out of some cheaper crappy grade of stainless steel, possibly something like 409 or 303 to make it easier to machine the cone, but I dont know. Lastly, it is possible they are not passified, which would reduce their corrosion resistance ability drastically. So the Home Depot bolts are cheaper because... well... they are cheap! But I am on your side, the less cash I have to pay out the happier I am. I fully support saving money when possible.


I agree with you, I only brought up the cheap sleve anchors because I didn't have anything to base the cost of a sleve on and I think it's pretty safe to assume that the sleve would be a fraction of the cost of the actual bolt that goes through it, so again, even without the slave labor and lack of QC, I'm guessing that a retail of 50 cents for the sleve is being generous (wow, that was a run-on sentance).


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Nov 21, 2012

kennoyce wrote:
I certainly have to disagree with several of your points here. I never said I just want to go on the cheap, I'm just saying that there is no reason for a bolt like this to cost more than about $1.50 and I'd gladly pay that. The .50 price for a bolt is looking at a 5/16" by 2 3/4" bolt at mcmaster who isn't known for having amazing prices(personally I'm not interested in a 4" bolt since I don't bolt soft Red Rock sandstone). In the climates and rock where I bolt, a stainless bolt is going to last probably 50 - 100 years (based on the fact that plated steel lasts a good 20 years), so if the wedge bolts have to be replaced once or twice a century, I'm not too worried about it, just tap the old bolt back into my overdrilled holes, cover it with a bit of epoxy putty, drill a new bolt 6 inches away and you'd never know that it wasn't the original. I understand that having a reusable hole is a nice thing, but imho it isn't a necessity.


5/16x 2.75" hex bolt (316 stainless) are over $1.00 each on mcmaster. i think you need to re-evaluate what you consider an appropriate pricing structure for bolts.

frankly, i would spend $7-$10 per bolt for a good, removeable, 1/2" stainless bolt at 4" of length. probably $5-7/bolt for a short bolt. (including hanger, of course).


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Nov 21, 2012

ClimbtechGear wrote:
Thanks for the feedback! 20kN, we're eletro-polishing these bad boys...

Very nice. I am not sure if I ever shared the results of my modification testing of the Wave-Bolt with you or not. I will send it over to you on FB.


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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Nov 21, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks

John Wilder wrote:
5/16x 2.75" hex bolt (316 stainless) are over $1.00 each on mcmaster. i think you need to re-evaluate what you consider an appropriate pricing structure for bolts. frankly, i would spend $7-$10 per bolt for a good, removeable, 1/2" stainless bolt at 4" of length. probably $5-7/bolt for a short bolt. (including hanger, of course).


Again, I don't bolt in a marine environment where I need grade 316 stainless. I bolt in the desert where 304 is just fine. The exact bolts I was refering to are McMaster item number 92198A694 which is a 5/16" x 2 3/4" grade 18-8 (304) hex head bolt that comes in a pack of 10 for $4.98.

When I bolt I use 3/8" grade 304 Hilti KB3's or Powers Stud bolts and I usually don't pay over 50 cents each for them. I'm not rich so I like to spend as little money as possible while still using quality hardware that will last a long time (i.e. not plated). If there isn't a huge difference between a good removeable bolt and a wedge bolt I'm all for it, if there is, unfortunatly I'm not in the position to be able to spend $7 - $10 per bolt.


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Nov 21, 2012
Bucky

John Wilder wrote:
Finally, wedge bolts are an abomination and should not ever be used for rock climbing. That they are cheap is their only redeeming quality. If you cannot hope to re-use the hole, there is no point in using that style of bolt.


I don't think that is a reasonable statement at all. In my experience (which is just that, my limited anecdotal experience) I have seen more problems with sleeve bolts than vice-a-versa....spinners etc. When you couple that with the fact that by the time sleeve bolts need replacing, the sleeves are often difficult to remove, then your statement just doesn't add up. Absolute statements are rarely a good policy. Besides, you need to pick your battles. Tons of developers out there are using non-SS sleeve bolts. And given the choice between a non-SS sleeve bolt and a SS wedge bolt in bomber granite, I would take the SS wedge any day.


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Nov 22, 2012
Thumbtastic

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What Mister Albers just said. Absolutism is great from atop a high horse, but the obvious may need to be explained here a bit for those who've placed less than a few hundred or thousand bolts:

Not every bolt is ideal for every application.

Examples? Marine grade stainless powers setups in soft white sandstone in the calico hills. A waste of money when you consider that stainless glue-ins won't turn into spinners. Once they start spinning and rocking, the pricey marine powers are time-bombs and the metal outlasting the hole it's eroding out of isn't much of a victory one way or another.

4 inch depth bolts in general. Wilder, I'm sure you probably know this from you ASCA work already, but for those in the dark, a 4" bolt needs a longer than standard bit to install, has minimally greater pullout strength than a 3.5" bolt of the same diameter, and would take longer to drill with a hand drill on lead, making this a really, really poor choice for lead bolting. For falls on most angles, the shear strength is the bigger issue, which is mainly a function of the diameter, not depth.

I'm not a huge wedge bolt guy either, but if you've bolted a face on lead, you'll no doubt be aware that they're considerably easier to get into a hole while gripped and skating on butter-slick smears, carrying a rack and ten pounds extra of bolting gear than a five-piece Rawl type. If you're rap bolting, this isn't a consideration at all, but, of course, if you're rap bolting, most likely you're buying pantyhose and not reading this in the first place. There's a reason that glue-ins aren't universal-they take time, and sometimes that's the last thing you have to spare in a prickly situation.

To each his own, I say. John W's opinion carries weight because of what he's done for the replacement effort; the opinions of those developing volumes of new routes that require different skillsets and equipment/hardware may vary. That said, some of the most experienced bolters in the area Wilder and I frequent still engage in hardware usage that would cause any first year carpenter to pull a facepalm, so ideals aside, I can assure you that time-bomb, dirt-cheap bolts are still going in at a steady pace,regardless of ideals, local ethics (""), or web-based sewing circle roundtables.

Best of luck to everyone pushing the technology and nods to everyone who's contributing ideas that make us as a group think twice about the long-term impacts we're having and how to be the best stewards we can of our local areas. But for heaven's sake don't use bolts to rockclimb. That would just eff the whole geedee thing up for the rest of us chickens.

Y'all stay up.


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By dnoB ekiM
Nov 22, 2012
Wonderstuff

Killis or Wilder,

In all of your experience at Red Rock, have you ever came across a stainless steel bolt that was highly corroded/rusted?

Killis,

I hear your point on spinners...the softness of the rock is the real issue and glue-ins are a good solution. Do we know how long the glue last? I think we may never get developers to see this as the best solution...although for the sandy soft stuff...it probably is. The wave-bolt is something that would be interesting to try as it can support weight prior to the glue drying.

Wilder,

I hear you on wedges, but I tend to think that stainless 1/2" Hilti KB3's are a fine solution at RR. I think they will not corrode during our lifetimes and will likely be usuable (in the better quality rock) for 100+ years. Also, the 1/2" Hilti KB3's have an ultimate strength of 50KN in Shear and up to 44KN in Tension (tension is highly dependent on the rock quality). So they are essentially way overbuilt for this purpose...one might call them "bomber", and will not need replacement for several generations. There is a solution now for removing them (core drill, see Jim Titt's site), but in 2112...I can imagine your great-grand kids having an even better solution.

The MUCH bigger issue is in this area is crap hardware store bolts (redhead studs and sleeves...the redhead sleeves are 100% garbage..but they are all over the place) and carbon steel bolts...which 95% of the bolts are...and which seem to last only about ~25 years (which is a real problem). I think expecting everyone to use removable bolts is straining to much for an ideal that we may not reach. As of today..there is not really a good removable bolt on the market. If equippers would stop using random hardware store bolts...that would be step one. Step two would be stainless... and Step three would be removable bolts.

For me, I have never used any hardware store bolts (Fixe, Powers and Hilti KB3 only), but I have placed some carbon steel bolts before going 100% stainless last year. If climb-tech can get this new removable bolt on the market at a reasonable cost, I would use it exclusively.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Nov 22, 2012

Nope, never seen a corroded stainless. Rarely see corroded good 5-pieces that are carbon. The worst bolts are always the stud bolts- the five pieces are usually fine.

regarding the 4" bolt- and i should have clarified this in my original post about bolt length- that is the length of the ClimbTech bolt. I was not making any statements of absoluteness about bolt length whatsoever.

I still stand by my wedge bolt opinion. Theyre a bitch to remove, and shouldnt be used as climbing pro because of it. But its just that, my opinion- i dont really care what anyone uses- at the end of the day, theyre going to use what they want to use, irregardless of the consequences 5, 10, or 50 years from now.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Nov 22, 2012

Mike Bond wrote:
I hear you on wedges, but I tend to think that stainless 1/2" Hilti KB3's are a fine solution at RR.

Bolters should avoid using wedge bolts in soft rock. Climbers have been killed from the false assumption that they are safe in all soft rock. A climber was killed in Australia awhile back on a multipitch sport sandstone route equipped with double expansion cone M8 wedge bolts manufactured from a company that makes bolts specifically for climbing, if I remember right. Although he actually died from a cut rope, it was later found that all of the bolts on the route were very unsafe and could be ripped with bodyweight alone.

climbing.about.com/b/2009/02/03/bolt-pulls-australian-climbe>>>

As climbers we often implicitly trust fixed gear like bolts. The ones on this climb were, however, totally inadequate for the job. The bolts were 8mm x 78mm wedge bolts made in Italy. These bolts would be fine in granite or limestone, but for sandstoneóno. The Blue Mountains sandstone, like that in the western United States, is very soft and requires either large sleeve bolts or glue-in bolts.

Anyway, if you check with Hilti or Powers they will tell you not to use wedge bolts in soft rock, and they will tell you to use sleeve bolts. Most experienced bolters will tell you the same. The problem is two-fold. First, wedge bolts have a limited expansion range. This is a big deal in soft rock because soft rock can compress under load. The higher expansion range of a sleeve bolt will allow for greater compression of the rock before the bolt pulls. Second, the expansion clip on a wedge bolt absolutely must be fixed in place by the rock. If the clip rotates, you will have a dangerous placement on your hands. The clip's ability to resist rotation and movement is dependent on the density of the rock and the presence of contiguous rock where the clip resides in the hole. If the rock is too soft or not contiguous you will get a clip spinner which is precisely what happened in the incident I posted above.

Granted, I would much rather clip a 1/2" wedge bolt in Red Rocks than a 3/8" one, but really, the best option is a 1/2" Power-Bolt or a long glue-in.


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By John Byrnes
Administrator
From Fort Collins, CO
Nov 23, 2012

20 kN wrote:
I am aware of the rotting limestone issue and I know that the phenomenon has a large effect on SCC in Thailand. But your statement is not valid for all areas. First off, how is rioting limestone causing CaCl2 and MgCl2 going to affect SCC on bolts in swimming pools? ... or rainwater. So CaCl2 and MgCl2 may be the primary cause of SCC in Thailand, but it is not the primary cause of SCC everywhere. Just plan old salt from the ocean or chlorine from a pool is sufficient to induce SCC as is proven by the existence of SCC in bolts that do not reside in limestone cliffs. Furthermore, SCC is not the only issue, equally as serious is pitting. Pitting has been responsible for two bolt failures in Hawaii. Pitting most certainly can occur from salt air alone, again as proven by the fact that we have pitting in Hawaii despite the lack of limestone....


Oops. That response was supposed to go elsewhere. Sorry, I'm new here ;-} Lemme start over:

Yes, you are right, the chemical mechanism underlying SCC in basalt, granite and sandstone may be significantly different from the one in limestone. I don't think anyone knows for sure yet. We need to see what the chemistry is inside the cracks and this should point us in the right direction. This is why I'm asking for samples of broken bolts from Hawaii and a piece of your rock.

And yes, as you say, NaCl alone can cause SCC in stainless, there being a good handful of factors involved such as the grade of the steel, temperature, humidity, crevices, acids, etc. A formal metallurgical analysis will be required to find out the underlying causes.

None of us here have heard about pitting causing failure! Please send samples, photos or whatever information you have! We had some pitting on Cayman Brac, a purple-pink fuzzy growth formed on the hangers but, in that case, the bolt or hanger broke long before the pits became significant. What do your pits look like? :-)


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Nov 23, 2012
Thumbtastic

John Wilder wrote:
Nope, never seen a corroded stainless. Rarely see corroded good 5-pieces that are carbon. The worst bolts are always the stud bolts- the five pieces are usually fine.


I've seen stainless bolts in waterworn areas that have corrosion on them, nothing compared to the epic worthlessness of matched-with-stainless-hanger carbon bolts, very much including carbon Powers/Rawls, which are ALL OVER THE PLACE in Red Rock. There are galvanically challenged bolt installations all over Red Rock that get water runoff and the stainless hangers look like old rusty nails you'd find holding together a hundred-year old shack in a ghost town. Wish I was exagerrating. I'm going to run out of interest here before I run out of routes I've replaced with drastically rusted carbon Powers 3/8 bolts, but here goes:

All pro and anchor bolts on Bewitched, 5.5.
Acid Jacks 11C, Graduate Cliff. Bolt so rusted the wedge was flaking apart, pulled out the whole shebang, sleeve, wedge, and all with a standard wrench and a little pressure. Hanger is so rusted I saved it as a memento-most rusted piece of stainless I've ever seen.
Triassic Sands, P2 anchor Powers 3/8 bolt snapped under hand pressure.
Misunderstanding, anchor Powers 3/8 bolt snapped under hand pressure.
Sensuous Mortician anchor 3/8 bolts way corroded, were matched with Metolius hangers, mixed metal had consequences as usual.
Perplexity 10D, all pro bolts solid corrosion, spun two in hole for a while before getting wedge to stick so threads could disengage, broke one Rawl above the threads trying to remove.
Miss Conception 10A, more rust than you can shake a stick at. This thing was a horrorshow until we replaced it, you'll hear locals telling stories about the bolts and anchors on this one for years to come, now it's mellow. All Rawl except a couple buttonheads.

Most of these are Swain routes, and most of these had homemade hangers, cold shut "hangers", or metolius or SMC stainless hangers. The bottom line is that for canyon applications, mixed metal installations are a much more short term solution than many are aware of. Quite a bit of the early ASCA replacement that happening in Red Rock used the local standard: 5 piece 3/8 or 1/2 inch carbon Rawl with stainless hangers. Take a look at older replacement jobs on routes on the Velvet Wall or Dark Shadows, for example, and you can see corrosion already starting to set in on many of those bolts. The McQuade/Henson large newer bolts on the Rainbow Wall Original Route are on their way to being as bad as the nail-drive models that no one ever bothered to remove right beside them.

There still is a lot of work to be done out there. I think Bond has a lot of good points, I still think that soft rock such as Sandstone Quarry tan/white special are better served by half-inch stainless Powers or glue-ins rather than the KB3s, which I can see using in very hard canyons stone, if I ever bolted out there, which, of course, I never ever would do, ever. The real problem with even quality wedge types like the Hiltis is that the solid stone you encounter on the first few pitches of that sweet dark varnish will turn to shit invariably on the upper pitches, and Powers fatties would be a much better choice for that more Calico-ey rock. So you're looking at situations where the best ground-up tactic might involve switching bolt types and sizes to suit the rock-very unlikely the vast majority of bolters will even consider as they shop for Redheads at Home Depot.

People are going to do what they're going to do, but it's a good sign that at least a handful of people give enough of a crap to put these issues on front street. John, if you want to see some epic rusties, help me finish up Tales from the Gripped in January, another Swain route guaranteed to have piles of rusted 3/8 shorty Rawls. I'll get Bond to come out and we can compare notes. Honest offer.


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By Chris Vinson
Nov 26, 2012

Thanks everyone.

For arguments sake, I think is a bit unfair to compare our sleeve bolt to wedge bolts. Also, keep in mind this is going to be electro polished 304 stainless steel.

Compared to stainless Fixe Triplex, Hilti HSLs, Power-Bolts and even stainless Confast this will come in much cheaper. Not a problem, getting them below or close to stainless wedgebolts is impossible, sorry. We're trying though! In many cases we might even be competitive with these manufacturers plated pricing also...which leads to my next point.

An idea, would be to make a plated version. Price would drop dramatically and would hopefully reduce the use of wedge style bolts entirely. Again, the bolt is easily replaceable...why not?

New routers might actually use them!

Thoughts?


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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Nov 26, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks

ClimbtechGear wrote:
Thanks everyone. For arguments sake, I think is a bit unfair to compare our sleeve bolt to wedge bolts. Also, keep in mind this is going to be electro polished 304 stainless steel. Compared to stainless Fixe Triplex, Hilti HSLs, Power-Bolts and even stainless Confast this will come in much cheaper. Not a problem, getting them below or close to stainless wedgebolts is impossible, sorry. We're trying though! In many cases we might even be competitive with these manufacturers plated pricing also...which leads to my next point. An idea, would be to make a plated version. Price would drop dramatically and would hopefully reduce the use of wedge style bolts entirely. Again, the bolt is easily replaceable...why not? New routers might actually use them! Thoughts?


Awesome, thanks for the info. Again, as the person who started this whole wedge vs. sleve anchor debate, I realize that you won't be able to get the price down as low as a wedge bolt, I just don't want to see prices like the rediculously expensive stainless power-bolts.

Personally, I'm an all stainless all the time kind of guy, but I do see the merrit in producing a plated version since it'd be easy to replace. I wouldn't use them, but I'd rather see a removeable plated bolt than a plated wedge anchor. My only real concern is the fact that the people placing plated wedge bolts are usually the same people who don't care about anything other than putting up a route for as little money as possible, so if your plated anchor cost more than their plated wedge bolts (which cost basically nothing), then I don't know how many would be used.

Also, you still haven't said if there is any thought on a 3/8" version for hard rock. The real issue with a 3/8" sleve anchor is getting the strength high enough but if you can do that I'd certainly be interested.


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By dnoB ekiM
Nov 26, 2012
Wonderstuff

ClimbtechGear wrote:
Thanks everyone. For arguments sake, I think is a bit unfair to compare our sleeve bolt to wedge bolts. Also, keep in mind this is going to be electro polished 304 stainless steel. Compared to stainless Fixe Triplex, Hilti HSLs, Power-Bolts and even stainless Confast this will come in much cheaper. Not a problem, getting them below or close to stainless wedgebolts is impossible, sorry. We're trying though! In many cases we might even be competitive with these manufacturers plated pricing also...which leads to my next point. An idea, would be to make a plated version. Price would drop dramatically and would hopefully reduce the use of wedge style bolts entirely. Again, the bolt is easily replaceable...why not? New routers might actually use them! Thoughts?


I think offering a plated one will be useful. People are cheap, and perhaps they would not justify to themselves the price of the stainless, but if you could get the plated down to around $3-4 with hanger...who wouldn't use them? Stainless is still the smart developers choice, but having a dirt-bag choice (that is still replacable) is a darn good thing.

Good on you guys for the design and investment.


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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Nov 26, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks

Mike Bond wrote:
if you could get the plated down to around $3-4 with hanger...who wouldn't use them?


All those dirt cheap developers who are paying less than $2 per plated bolt hanger combo.


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By mattm
From TX
Nov 26, 2012
Grande Grotto

The problem I have with PS is that SOMEONE will still need to pony up the money and time in the not too distant future to replace them. Even though they ARE easy to swap out, the FIRST TIME you do swap PS for PS you've likely exceeded the cost of SS. The cost of SS up front is WELL WORTH IT in the long run and will probably save 3-4x $$ or more over the long run. Lets encourage long term thinking on these issues.


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By dnoB ekiM
Nov 26, 2012
Wonderstuff

mattm wrote:
The problem I have with PS is that SOMEONE will still need to pony up the money and time in the not too distant future to replace them. Even though they ARE easy to swap out, the FIRST TIME you do swap PS for PS you've likely exceeded the cost of SS. The cost of SS up front is WELL WORTH IT in the long run and will probably save 3-4x $$ or more over the long run. Lets encourage long term thinking on these issues.



While I 100% agree with you in concept, having a $3-4 replacable solution may convince some to use it over the $3 non-replacable (also plated) solution. Taking the hard-line view never works to change others actions.


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