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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Jul 25, 2012

Chris Vinson wrote:
Although the problem with titanium is...hahaha oh man this could go on forever.

What is the problem with it? I use it all the time to bolt in Hawaii. Granted you have to sell your house to afford the stuff, and you wont see any 50 kN stamps on Ti bolts, but I am not aware of any other issues.


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By Chris Vinson
Jul 25, 2012

Titanium is expensive and I've seen it break. As Lee Cujes, a large retailer of Climbtech in Oz puts this nicely.

"Titanium does not rust. Therefore it is the perfect material to make bolts from for use in Thailand. It's tried and tested. The problem is it is expensive. With glue, a single titanium bolt costs around US $15. Rebolting an average pitch can easily cost $200. This is about quadruple the price of stainless steel bolts."

At the end of the day, the cost to establish a route or retrofit the rig at a later time becomes cost prohibitive. We're rock climbers after all, cheap, dirty and often hungry.

And, well, they break.

"We frequintly use titanium fasteners on the larger gimbles we assemble in my line of work. I have seen titanium bolts break and low carbon steel fasteners elongate and not break under the same forces.
Not a guess."

from: www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/646957/Titanium-Bolt-Failur>>>

This incident happened in my backyard and I know the guy that broke the titanium glue in. Also, of note, this is in an environment where there has been very little evidence of any corrosion. Far from Hawaii or Thailand.


As far as the flange goes on the removable bolts, thanks for the input Jim and 20kN. We're actively seeking a safer removable solution for long term use. Always thinking outside the box and refusing to market a product based on margins or profit, but to give back to climbing in any way we can.

Cheers.


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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Jul 25, 2012

20 kN wrote:
What is the problem with it? I use it all the time to bolt in Hawaii. Granted you have to tell your house to afford the stuff, and you wont see any 50 kN stamps on Ti bolts, but I am not aware of any other issues.


a) difficult to work
b) expensive
c) not very strong
d) not as corrosion resistant as one might think

or
a) more difficult to work
b) much more expensive
c) stronger
d) more corrosion resistant

Just a few of the reasons the market isnīt flooded with titanium bolts and you ended up making them yourself at a commercially insane price!


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By mattm
From TX
Jul 25, 2012
Grande Grotto

Chris Vinson wrote:
As far as the flange goes on the removable bolts, thanks for the input Jim and 20kN. We're actively seeking a safer removable solution for long term use. Always thinking outside the box and refusing to market a product based on margins or profit, but to give back to climbing in any way we can. Cheers.


In my limited experience pulling sleeve anchors, the two biggest hurdles to easy removal are:

1) The expansion cone getting stuck. This is really a design limitation of the 5-Piece as its cone is specifically oversized to help "grab" in the hole. The Hilti HSL is a very similar sleeve bolt that does not have this issue. The cone doesn't stick in the hole nearly as much. The HSL uses a different system to help the cone "stick" and the bolt expand. Simply designing a bolt with a cone that does NOT stick in the hole would make it vastly more removable when the time came. I've pulled a few HSLs and they're VASTLY easier to remove than a 5-Piece.

2) BY FAR, the biggest hang up with replacing a "5 Piece" is getting the damn sleeve out. The 2-piece sleeve design of the "5 Piece" is the major short fall. The outer sleeve can USUALLY be pulled with little difficulty but getting that inner sleeve out is a PITA. Particularly with 3/8in or rusted PS sleeves. Making the Sleeve 1 piece will go a long way to reduce this issue. As noted, the flange on a Triplex is there to aid in removal but it also causes issues with it's security. Instead of a flange, perhaps designing a way to pull the sleeve with some sort of tool would be a good compromise? I recall reading a post somewhere where a guy made a "pulling tool" for the Sleeve out of a bent and sharpened T-handle hex wrench. He'd insert the "hook" into a hole in the sleeve and yank it out. Could you put a purpose made hole in the sleeve near the surface and have a specifically designed "pulling hook" to key into the hole and yank it? Done right, the hook could also reach in and yank the cone if needed (made even easier if the cone in NOT and interference fit).



Bent Hex Handle "Extractor"
Bent Hex Handle "Extractor"



Picture of the Extractor in the lower sleeve hole.
Picture of the Extractor in the lower sleeve hole.




Old Metolius 3-Piece design.  Looks very similar to the prototype posted above
Old Metolius 3-Piece design. Looks very similar to the prototype posted above


Could you simply add some "extraction holes" to the one-piece sleeve and then make a GOOD extraction tool? I'm picturing a straight shaft tool with a fishhook-like barb on the end that hooks into the extraction hole. The angle of the barb is such that it engages the hole and also pulls the sleeve onto it (and away from the hole wall). Yank on tool handle, pull sleeve, reinsert and pull the cone. Done.


Rudimentary "Extraction Hook" I made from a screwdriver.
Rudimentary "Extraction Hook" I made from a screwdriver.

Rough job with and angle grinder. I'm sure with more effort something far better could be made...


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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Jul 25, 2012

Chris Vinson:-
Well we cross posted there but thatīs life.

Titanium does `rustī, in fact it gains its general corrosion resistance from a virtually instantaneous conversion of the surface into TiO or one of the other oxides. Titanium itself is so chemically unstable that it is only found in the earth as one of the oxides and to persuade it to become a stable metal is very difficult and expensive, the usual method being to alloy it with oxygen in solution.
In circumstances where oxygen is not available corrosion in the alloys is extremely rapid and titanium also suffers from all the ailments of stainless steel in the right circumstances as well including the dreaded SCC in chloride solutions. Some alloys are relatively immune and some not (and when the supplier cannot tell you what alloy they used one can only shake ones head in disbelief), regrettably the cheap alloys with resistance are fairly weak and the only commercially available titanium bolt for a while was unnaceptably so for sale in Europe as well as being made of the incorrect alloy. We and the DAV have tested some of these with dissapointing results.
Welding, despite claims from the industry, doesnīt seem to be quite as straightforward as one would hope. In one company I worked in many years ago we machined welded titanium components (F1 suspension arms) and we had a scrap rate of over 70% until the welders got the post treatment under control. Itīs worth noting that the use of certain titanium components in particular frames was banned by the FIM (the world motorcycle racing federation) back in the 60īs after a spate of failures and for safety critical components is still prohibited, as it is for some components in F1 cars.
The best uses for titanium are aircraft turbines where its retention of strength at high temperatures is helpful and surgical implants where the inert nature of the surface reduces rejection.

As to removable bolts one school of though is that climbers (equippers) have two choices.
a) A bolt design where the tightening torque is essentially irrelevant and a change in the tension over the bolts lifetime is also irrelevant to the ultimate capacity of the bolt to hold, increased loading will also increase the extraction resistance in most cases.
b) Or a design where a minimum tension (torque) is required at all times through the bolts lifetime to ensure it achieves the required extraction resistance.

Taking into account the fairly widespread ineptitude and carelessness of parts of the climbing community and the uncontrolled later use of the bolts most people at least in Europe have wisely chosen to go for the first design on the grounds of safety (which is of course the reason for the bolts existence).
Desirable would be a design which combines all the advantages of the wedge or through bolt combined with ease of removal, this is the real challenge!


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Jul 25, 2012

Jim Titt wrote:
a) difficult to work b) expensive c) not very strong d) not as corrosion resistant as one might think or a) more difficult to work b) much more expensive c) stronger d) more corrosion resistant Just a few of the reasons the market isnīt flooded with titanium bolts and you ended up making them yourself at a commercially insane price!

Well I dont know what type of Ti bolts you were using, but the grade six U bolts we used to use held 30+ kN in tension. That is stronger than any 3/8" bolt on the market, and 5kN above what the UIAA requires. The newer bolts we are using are similar to the Tortuga. They contain more Ti, so they are less alloyed than the U bolts were using. They are made of grade four titanium. According to the manufacturer, they are more corrosion resistant then our other grade six U bolts, but they are also more brittle. The manufacturer specs them at 22kN which is strong enough for a CE cert.


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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Jul 26, 2012

20 kN wrote:
Well I dont know what type of Ti bolts you were using, but the grade six U bolts we used to use held 30+ kN in tension. That is stronger than any 3/8" bolt on the market, and 5kN above what the UIAA requires. The newer bolts we are using are similar to the Tortuga. They contain more Ti, so they are less alloyed than the U bolts were using. They are made of grade four titanium. According to the manufacturer, they are more corrosion resistant then our other grade six U bolts, but they are also more brittle. The manufacturer specs them at 22kN which is strong enough for a CE cert.


You mean stronger than any 3/8" bolt-in? For a glue-in that would be the weakest bolt on the market by a long way!
For a U-bolt virtually any grade would probably be suitable since there is so little stress, that U-bolts have other problems you already know.
The ones we tested were a commercially available (at that time) single stem welded eye bolt which had the unfortunate tendency to break off at the stem directly below the weld at values lower than those given by the manufacturer which were already lower than the EN requirements. Clearly there were problems with the welding heat control and possibly alloy changes during welding, either way the bolts were completely unsatisfactory and showed that more work would be required to get a consistently strong product, whether this is possible at a realistic market price is doubtful.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Jul 26, 2012

Jim Titt wrote:
You mean stronger than any 3/8" bolt-in? For a glue-in that would be the weakest bolt on the market by a long way! For a U-bolt virtually any grade would probably be suitable since there is so little stress, that U-bolts have other problems you already know. The ones we tested were a commercially available (at that time) single stem welded eye bolt which had the unfortunate tendency to break off at the stem directly below the weld at values lower than those given by the manufacturer which were already lower than the EN requirements. Clearly there were problems with the welding heat control and possibly alloy changes during welding, either way the bolts were completely unsatisfactory and showed that more work would be required to get a consistently strong product, whether this is possible at a realistic market price is doubtful.

Yes, I meant 3/8" expansion bolts. Which bolts were you experiencing issues with? Do you have a pic of one? As far as I am aware, in the last few years there have only been four production level runs of Ti bolts, and I have seen all four. The first is the Tortuga, which is no longer made. The second is the U-bolts I referenced that Thailand was using as well. The third is the new Tortuga look-alike bolts that had threaded ends. The fourth and current production run is similar to the third, but it has stamped notches instead of threads. Anyway, the Tortuga look-alike bolts are rated for 22 kN and the u-bolts hold 30+. So either you gut your hands on a bolt that is not on that list, or you got a defective bolt. I am interested in which of the two it is.

So what are the other problems that U bolts have that I already know? They have a couple of problems, so I am not sure which problem you are referencing.


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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Jul 26, 2012

20 kN wrote:
Yes, I meant 3/8" expansion bolts. Which bolts were you experiencing issues with? Do you have a pic of one? As far as I am aware, in the last few years there have only been four production level runs of Ti bolts, and I have seen all four. The first is the Tortuga, which is no longer made. The second is the U-bolts I referenced that Thailand was using as well. The third is the new Tortuga look-alike bolts that had threaded ends. The fourth and current production run is similar to the third, but it has stamped notches instead of threads. Anyway, the Tortuga look-alike bolts are rated for 22 kN and the u-bolts hold 30+. So either you gut your hands on a bolt that is not on that list, or you got a defective bolt. I am interested in which of the two it is. So what are the other problems that U bolts have that I already know? They have a couple of problems, so I am not sure which problem you are referencing.


The bolts were the old USHBA welded bolt, they broke far too erraticly at the weld to be considered even remotely acceptable. The DAV results were 9kN,9kN,10kN,24kN and one held to 35kN. Given the enormous spread of results I (and most others)would want to see a large test of any other bolt of this kind before I was convinced the welding issues were under control. To get acceptable and usable stastitical values someone is going to have to make several thousand bolts in different batches and test say 100 random samples which is unlikely to happen. Basically putting the USHBA bolts on the market made every subsequent titanium bolt suspect and to establish a reputation that titanium can make a strong and reliable bolt is going to cost a lot of money.

The last bit is a bit cryptic! I donīt know what you donīt know but Iīd imagine you are aware enough of the usual pitfalls with failure to get complete glue coverage, unclipping, rope/draw wear on the rock, extra drilling and so on. U bolts are an unnatractive design but a well-thought out and carefully installed titanium U bolt is more desirable in my opinion than a welded eye design.


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By Chris Vinson
Jul 27, 2012

&


Great demo video from Dave Pegg, who knows a thing or two about bolting.


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By Chris Vinson
Sep 24, 2012



Here's a quick video demonstrating how the RB's work!

Big thanks to Chris, Randy, Kevin, Joe and Collette. You can find them at [[www.rapbolting.com
!

Bulk prices are available too!


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Sep 24, 2012

Jim Titt wrote:
U bolts are an unnatractive design but a well-thought out and carefully installed titanium U bolt is more desirable in my opinion than a welded eye design.

I completely agree with you. If I controlled Ti bolt production for the industry, all Ti bolts would be U bolts. That is interesting info about the Ushba bolts. Weren't those CE certified? As far as the welding issue goes, I used to work as a welder, but I have never welded titanium so I cannot comment on the integrity issues related to the welding. But I can say I have tested a few of the eye bolts we use now and they all held up well. But again, I dident test an entire box of them, only a few. As far as the glue penetration issue goes air bubbles and a lack of proper penetration is a concern. I believe that one of the best things a bolt manufacturer can do to combat that issue is to use threaded bolts instead of bolts with only a couple of small indented notches. Yet, it seems pressed notches are the norm nowadays despite their clear disadvantages. I have been rather interested in knowing why manufacturers are opting for the pressed indentation method instead of the threading method. I know that threading a bolt can make it slightly weaker, but it is possible to stamp threads instead if that is a concern.


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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Sep 25, 2012

Like all but one bolt manufacturer I donīt make U-bolts in any material and donīt intend starting, the Buhler design is by far superior in all respects.
Bolts arenīt CE marked or certified, they are tested to EN959 and I donīt remember the USHBA bolts ever claiming this. They never were exported to Europe anyway and no Ti bolt ever has been.
Pressing notches is vastly cheaper than threading which anyway is a bit difficult on a Buhler type bolt which is the common design here. For single stem bolts which arenīt so popular a number of companies such as Kong or Raumer use knurled shafts instead of notching.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Sep 26, 2012

Jim Titt wrote:
Like all but one bolt manufacturer I donīt make U-bolts in any material and donīt intend starting, the Buhler design is by far superior in all respects. Bolts arenīt CE marked or certified, they are tested to EN959 and I donīt remember the USHBA bolts ever claiming this. They never were exported to Europe anyway and no Ti bolt ever has been. Pressing notches is vastly cheaper than threading which anyway is a bit difficult on a Buhler type bolt which is the common design here. For single stem bolts which arenīt so popular a number of companies such as Kong or Raumer use knurled shafts instead of notching.

I agree that your twisted leg design/ the Buhler design is superior than a u-bolt design in all but one respect. However, when I said I thought the u-bolt design was superior I was mainly referring to the Tortuga design with the bent and welded eye versus a u-bolt, which is basically the same thing it sounds like you were saying. Anyway, the primary advantage I see to the u-bolt design over some of the Buhler designs is that a widely spaced u-bolt (2.5" ID leg spacing or more) will offer a lower chance of the draw coming unclipped than some of the Buhler designs I have seen with loops that have inside diameters of only 1" or so.

As far as Ti material goes, I am not sure if a Buhler design would really work. Ti can be a fairly brittle material and I suspect you wouldn't be able to twist the hell out of it like you do with your bolts and not damage or break the stock. What do you think? As far as the CE certification goes, I am surprised there is no CE certification available. It seems like many of the climbing related CE certifications are basically near mirrors of their UIAA certification counterparts, so I figured there would be a CE cert for bolts as there is a UIAA one.

Threading a bolt in the United States is not that expensive. I used to make u-bolts for a steel manufacturer and it was a really easy and inexpensive process. Pretty much everything was automated. I would cut the stock to length in a huge 500 ton press which would chop 20 samples at a time. Then I would take the the cut stock and insert it into a fully automated machine which would quickly thread both ends of the rod. Then the threaded rod was put into a different press which would create the u-bolt shape. It was pretty easy.

I could see how threading the rod by hand would be costly as it is labor intensive, but there are machines out there that can thread a bolt almost instantly with no intervention required from the operator. In any case, even if stamping the rod was truly less expensive, why not stamp threads or use a more elaborate stamp that creates more groves? I supposed some would argue that the stamping used by manufacturers such as Fixe is adequate, and in most cases they would be right. But, take a few clear test tubes and try to glue some bolts into them. You will quickly realize that getting an air pocket in the hole can really cut down the amount of surface area that the epoxy is attached to, and in that case having complete threading or complex stamping can be important. The Strength and Reliability of Chemically Bonded Rock Climbing Anchors in Sandstone makes it fairly clear how threading the stock is far superior to any type of stamping.


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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Sep 27, 2012

The general impression is tha titanium can be cold worked but it is limited which probably means what I do to make bolts is completely out of the question! If someone gave me a load of rod Iīd try it but I have my doubts.
Directive 2001/45/EC Work at Height from the EU covers climbing equipment and personal protective equipment (PPE) is required to be CE marked. The CE mark is not a standard,just a certification that the products conforms to the relevant standard which is usually the European Norm (EN). Bolts are not PPE as they are not an item of personal equipment and therefore do not and (may not) carry a CE mark. They must however pass the relevant EN959 for sale in Europe as part of the common standards system to protect European industry from cheap/nasty imports. For the end user there is no effective difference but for the manufacturer a considerable cost difference. To get the UIAA Safety Label the bolts have to pass EN959.

We just cut two helical grooves up the bar which seems to let the morter flow better around the stem, because of the steep angle they work o.k. even if you push them in without twisting but one tends to twist them anyway. I could cut normal threads as Iīve a automatic thread cutting machine but I donīt, it looks cheap somehow!


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By John Byrnes
Administrator
From Fort Collins, CO
Nov 20, 2012

ClimbtechGear wrote:
Titanium is expensive and I've seen it break... This incident happened in my backyard and I know the guy that broke the titanium glue in.


If you know the guy please describe exactly what happened, because every time I've asked about this incident the people involved instantly clam-up. Based on the photo I saw, this bolt was improperly installed with over 1" of the shaft out of the hole. Put that kind of leverage on a steel bolt, fall on it, and it will break too.

I've been trying to get this broken bolt for failure analysis for years, but I've gotten no response. Have your friend send it to me and I'll post the results of a professional analysis for free.

ClimbtechGear wrote:
The problem is it is expensive. With glue, a single titanium bolt costs around US $15. Rebolting an average pitch can easily cost $200. This is about quadruple the price of stainless steel bolts."


I just ordered over a hundred Ti bolts for US$9.50 each. With glue, about $10. And the Petzl 316 Collinox stainless glue-in is about $18 each. I have several broken Collinox bolts in my collection.

ClimbtechGear wrote:
, well, they break. "We frequintly use titanium fasteners on the larger gimbles we assemble in my line of work. I have seen titanium bolts break and low carbon steel fasteners elongate and not break under the same forces. Not a guess."


This is just pure ignorance. Like steel, or any metal, the alloy chosen must be matched to the purpose intended. Climbing bolts are made from titanium Type 2 or "6,4" which is tougher than steel and does not break in normal climbing use.

The one and only broken Ti bolt is the Texas bolt, which is why I want it. On the other hand, thousands (no typo) of stainless expansion bolts, hangers and glue-in bolts have broken around the world. I've broken about 100 myself just yanking on the draw. I've snapped a dozen hangers in half with my fingers.

ClimbtechGear wrote:
thinking outside the box and refusing to market a product based on margins or profit, but to give back to climbing in any way we can.


By bashing Ti and pushing stainless? Man, that's generous of you, especially since you sell stainless bolts. If you really want to give back, send me the broken bolt.


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By Chris Vinson
Nov 20, 2012

Take it easy John. I like the Titanium just bolts fine, matter of fact i like them a lot. I'll be the first to admit I was wrong!

Fantastic bolt, Josh, Martin, Sam and the gang really figured it out this time and are doing GREAT things for climbing in coastal areas.

Is it the best glue in for coastal areas? All things considered, possibly! The 2205 duplex stainless glue-ins that Bolt Products offers is tremendous as well.

I just got back from the Access Fund Future of Fixed Gear conference, talked with lots of great people and there are so many great bolts for different areas and application, this bolt is a great step in the right direction for glue in anchors!

Cheers to the Thaitanium effort and keeping climbing safe for everyone.

Chris Vinson


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By John Byrnes
Administrator
From Fort Collins, CO
Nov 20, 2012

ClimbtechGear wrote:
Take it easy John. I like the Titanium just bolts fine, matter of fact i like them a lot. I'll be the first to admit I was wrong!


Thanks Chris.

ClimbtechGear wrote:
2205 duplex stainless glue-ins that Bolt Products offers is tremendous as well.


We looked at duplex steels back in 1999, but chose Ti for multiple reasons. Anyway, we'd still like to know more about this bolt, and especially its resistance to SCC. Do you have information about them?

ClimbtechGear wrote:
I just got back from the Access Fund Future of Fixed Gear conference, talked with lots of great people...


Did you speak with Angele or hear her presentation? She's the one who really wants the Texas bolt if you can get it!


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By Chris Vinson
Nov 20, 2012

I did speak with Angele, she showed everyone solid evidence as to why titanium is an optimal solution in heavily corrosive environments based on several tests. I got lost in the chemistry of it all, but yes i brought up 2205 duplex as an alternative. Jim Titt weighed in also during this talk also...on electro polishing also and how it helps in regards to its resilience against corrosion. Jim is a wealth of knowledge and I strongly endorse his products.

We are making great progress on the Wavebolts, they still need tweaking, as of now we got them to work with 9/16" but not quite 1/2" holes. They are electro polished now, the waves are tighter and more consistent, the weld is clean ... couple tweaks, testing and some certifications next... we are almost done.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Nov 21, 2012

John Byrnes wrote:
Thanks Chris. We looked at duplex steels back in 1999, but chose Ti for multiple reasons. Anyway, we'd still like to know more about this bolt, and especially its resistance to SCC. Do you have information about them? Did you speak with Angele or hear her presentation? She's the one who really wants the Texas bolt if you can get it!

2205 will provide a pretty good resistance to SCC. I believe that 6% Mo 2205 is the standard bolt used in structural support for pools in buildings. The chlorine in pool water will accelerate SCC pretty quickly, possibly faster than the salt in a coastal environment.


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By John Byrnes
Administrator
From Fort Collins, CO
Nov 21, 2012

20 kN wrote:
2205 will provide a pretty good resistance to SCC. I believe that 6% Mo 2205 is the standard bolt used in structural support for pools in buildings. The chlorine in pool water will accelerate SCC pretty quickly, possibly faster than the salt in a coastal environment.


Yes, but mostly No. If you read Angele's article, or listen closely to the video in The Thaitanium Project DVD, you'll then see that it's not seawater, seawater aerosols, or swimming pool water that causes SCC in climbing bolts. That's the long-standing myth. Marine Grade 316 stainless is called that because it has excellent resistance to SCC in seawater!

What Angele found is that it's rainwater that is the culprit. Rainwater, often accelerated by rotting vegetation and the carbonic acid it produces, dissolves limestone producing CaCl2 and MgCl2, which is carried to the bolts either on the rock's surface or behind it. When the rain evaporates, it leaves these salts on the bolt, and SCC starts.

This is why inland crags area, such as in Cuba, have SCC too.

ASTM standard G36 involves boiling the metal in MgCl2. The 316 stainless cracks in 4.5hrs. The Ti alloys, both Type 2 and 6,4, show NO signs of cracking even after an exhausing 670hrs, or 28 DAYS! Not only do they have no cracks, they look brand new.

On Cayman Brac, the oldest bolts are now 13 years old and they look brand new.

So, do you have data on the 2205 boiling in MgCl2? That would be a good indicator of how it will perform in field, without endangering anyone's life.


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By Brian in SLC
Nov 21, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

John Byrnes wrote:
Rainwater, often accelerated by rotting vegetation and the carbonic acid it produces, dissolves limestone producing CaCl2 and MgCl2, which is carried to the bolts either on the rock's surface or behind it. When the rain evaporates, it leaves these salts on the bolt, and SCC starts.


Great Stuff!
John Byrnes does not have any contributions that have been rated Great or Useful.


I'd rate this great and useful!

Ha ha.

Wonder how Inconel 718 would fair...


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Nov 21, 2012

For those interested, hang tight, the Access Fund will be getting the transcripts and audio recordings of the FFA Conference up on a website at some point in the near future.

It was a very good conference with a healthy mix of opinions and lots of sharing of great information.

Thanks to the Access Fund, Climb Tech, Jim Titt, Fixe, and loads of others for making it a great time for all 80 attendees!


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By Chris Vinson
Nov 21, 2012

Thanks John, your party was a hit!

Here is a quick demo video of the legacy bolt, we're making tweaks to the hanger and working on a price. I'll get back to everyone ASAP. Feel free to post up comments, critques, good or bad, i really want to know what everyone thinks.



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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Nov 21, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks

Thanks John, your party was a hit! Here is a quick demo video of the legacy bolt, we're making tweaks to the hanger and working on a price. I'll get back to everyone ASAP. Feel free to post up comments, critques, good or bad, i really want to know what everyone thinks.

>

Looks like a great idea, easily removeable, but no worries about the hanger leveraging out the sleve. One concern that I have is the bolt loosening due to hanger movement. The reason that power bolts have the blue nylon sleve is to allow that part to compress when the bolt is tightened. This pulls the hanger into the rock and provides friction between the hanger and the rock which helps to keep the hanger from spinning (at least until the rock behind the hanger wears away). It looks to me like you're design won't pull the hanger into the rock at all making a spinner more likely.

I would also like to see this anchor available in 3/8" for good solid rock while maintaining a decent strength. And obviously I would like the bolt hanger combo to be affordable (like $3 for 3/8" and $4 for 1/2"). I generally pay around $2.50 per 3/8" stainless bolt/hanger combo, so I wouldn't purchase these if they were much more than that. Keep up the good work, I use your stainless hangers almost exclusively and think they're great.


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