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Jul 4, 2012
Eiger summit
Dom wrote:
Does anyone have a good online website for ordering Epcon or Red head A7 and extra nozzles? Buying at the hardware store is just too much money.


fastenmsc.com/
Brian
From North Kingstown, RI
Joined Sep 27, 2001
656 points
Jul 4, 2012
Kind of off topic, but is it worth tightening bolts that have a hanger loose enough to flop around, or does it need to be replaced? This is in pretty soft rock (malibu creek) kaiyhul
Joined Apr 14, 2012
2 points
Administrator
Jul 5, 2012
bmdhacks wrote:
Can anyone comment on these home-made hangers I found at a crag. They look to be 1/16th inch steel that's been cut with snips and had the rough edges sanded off. I was concerned that a fall would slice through my quickdraw biner.

Slice through the biner? No, no chance. The hanger would break before that would happen, and if it did not, the biner would not fail from the hanger cutting through the aluminum. However, that is a less than optimal bolt, it would be a good idea to replace it.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
665 points
Jul 5, 2012
bmdhacks wrote:
Can anyone comment on these home-made hangers I found at a crag. They look to be 1/16th inch steel that's been cut with snips and had the rough edges sanded off. I was concerned that a fall would slice through my quickdraw biner.


Looks like a Leeper hanger.
Gunkiemike
Joined Jul 29, 2009
1,716 points
Jul 8, 2012
Definitely not a Leeper hanger. Leepers are bent in the opposite direction and have a hole for a single carabiner.
It looks very similar in shape to a MHE hanger, circa mid-80s. But the MHE was heat treated chromoly (appearance is not bright or shiny) and the HME has slightly rounded corners.
i55.photobucket.com/albums/g14...

Using the same dies about 1990, I made a production run of stainless steel which would give the bright appearance. I used a thicker sheet metal, approx. 1/8" thick. The hanger in bmdhacks' photo was not one of my hangers. Most of the SS MHE hangers are placed in Baja.

i55.photobucket.com/albums/g14...
ClimbBaja
Joined Nov 20, 2009
20 points
Administrator
Jul 18, 2012
I believe I found a textbook example of galvanic corrosion today. This bolt was located on a Tyrolean Traverse at the Avalon wall in Boulder, CO, next to the river. The bolt and the washer under the bolt is made out of plated steel, and the hanger is made out of stainless steel. As you can see, only the plated steel material in contact with the stainless steel is corroding. If this was general uniform corrosion, the corrosion would not be limited to only the area in contact with the hanger.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
665 points
Jul 18, 2012
Anyone have opinions on the new-ish Wave glue-ins? John Braun
From Hendersonville, NC
Joined Feb 3, 2011
23 points
Jul 18, 2012
John Braun wrote:
Anyone have opinions on the new-ish Wave glue-ins?


Do you mean other than opinions about Wave's quite misleading testing in comparison to Bolt Products bolts, in which they compared pullout strength with the holes for the Bolt Products bolts drilled oversize?

No, no opinions. Other than the obvious.
Aric Datesman
Joined Sep 16, 2008
145 points
Administrator
Jul 19, 2012
John Braun wrote:
Anyone have opinions on the new-ish Wave glue-ins?

I have used them a bit. I have worked with the owner/ designer of the product in trying to improving the corrosion resistance of his design a bit. Anyway, they are good bolts for the money, and they are very strong. However, the bolts require a huge hole which requires a powerful drill and a lot of epoxy. If you are placing the Wave Bolts in hard rock, you must oversize the hole or else you will need a sledge hammer to get them in. For the 1/2" version you need a 5/8" hole and for the 5/8" version you need a 11/16" hole. Drilling a 11/16" x 4" hole eats up quite a bit of epoxy.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
665 points
Jul 19, 2012
Grande Grotto
John Braun wrote:
Anyone have opinions on the new-ish Wave glue-ins?



Glue In bolt discussion on RC
mattm
From TX
Joined Jun 2, 2006
1,238 points
Jul 19, 2012
I'll bet you need a sledge to get a 5/8 into a 11/16 hole! ;) Rogerlarock
From Nedsterdam, Colorado
Joined Sep 22, 2008
23 points
Jul 19, 2012
...
"What's kind of interesting with respect to all this chatter about galvanic corrosion, is, there is very little to no evidence of it at any crag in the U.S. between plated and stainless steel."...

Well I am going to have to disagree there as I personally have seen it quite a few times when replacing mank...

and I am just one person so you know many others have come across it as well...

Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Joined Oct 13, 2002
2,394 points
Administrator
Jul 19, 2012
Rick Mix wrote:
I'll bet you need a sledge to get a 5/8 into a 11/16 hole! ;)

Actually they fit in a 11/16" with no effort, you can slide them in. The reason you need a larger hole with the 1/2" version is because with the 1/2" version, the legs are spread more than the 5/8" version.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
665 points
Administrator
Jul 19, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
Locker wrote:
"What's kind of interesting with respect to all this chatter about galvanic corrosion, is, there is very little to no evidence of it at any crag in the U.S. between plated and stainless steel."... Well I am going to have to disagree there as I personally have seen it quite a few times when replacing mank... and I am just one person so you know many others have come across it as well...


i have noticed it quite a bit also. i think most people don't really know what to look for, so they assume it isn't there.
slim
Joined Dec 1, 2004
2,067 points
Jul 19, 2012
20 kN wrote:
If you are placing the Wave Bolts in hard rock, you must oversize the hole or else you will need a sledge hammer to get them in. For the 1/2" version you need a 5/8" hole and for the 5/8" version you need a 11/16" hole. Drilling a 11/16" x 4" hole eats up quite a bit of epoxy.


This has a lot to do with the inconsistency in production, a lot of them have been made to be "about right" in the past.

I just sank a couple the other day, 1/2" hole for the 1/2" Wavebolt and then a 5/8" hole for the 5/8" Wavebolt.

I'd be willing to bet that this issue will get fixed with upgraded tooling and manufacturing.

I think its a great design, very simple, innovative compared to anything else out on the market, they just need a bit more refinement.
Chris Vinson
Joined Jul 9, 2012
67 points
Jul 19, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks
slim wrote:
i have noticed it quite a bit also. i think most people don't really know what to look for, so they assume it isn't there.


I agree with this. I noticed the first photo posted by "Brian in SLC" where he is saying that he hasn't ever seen galvanic corosion is a textbook example of galvanic corosion. Also, the photo he posted of the old petzl caving hanger (SS not aluminum) looks like it was probably galvanic corosion (it's too old to really know, but I'd guess it is).
kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Joined Aug 12, 2010
1,504 points
Administrator
Jul 19, 2012
Chris Vinson wrote:
This has a lot to do with the inconsistency in production, a lot of them have been made to be "about right" in the past. I just sank a couple the other day, 1/2" hole for the 1/2" Wavebolt and then a 5/8" hole for the 5/8" Wavebolt. I'd be willing to bet that this issue will get fixed with upgraded tooling and manufacturing. I think its a great design, very simple, innovative compared to anything else out on the market, they just need a bit more refinement.

The Wave Bolts are designed that way. Maybe there are production consistency issues as well, but the Wave Bolt was designed to enable bolters to place them in roofs and clip into them before the epoxy cures. They designed the legs to be wider than the hole diameter so you have to force them into the hole. When you do so, the legs compress and they provide enough resistance to allow you to clip into them and hang on them. However, they were designed mainly for the RRG, which has soft sandstone. When you try to use them in hard rock, forget it, it is impossible to get them in if you do not oversize the hole.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
665 points
Jul 20, 2012
20 kN wrote:
However, they were designed mainly for the RRG, which has soft sandstone. When you try to use them in hard rock, forget it, it is impossible to get them in if you do not oversize the hole.


You're spot on.

I agree with you 20kN, they are tough for harder rock. You hit all the points that make them innovative and useful for equipping routes. They are also made with 316L stainless which would make them ideal for salt water environments like Thailand too.

I put them in 5000psi concrete, which is pretty hard stuff, but nowhere near the strength of some types of granite, but very comparable to some types of limestone. Harder rock will make them harder to place, but in terms of purpose, how many extremely steep overhung granite crags are there in relation to sandstone or limestone, which they were designed for?

The design is solid though, i will humbly argue that point with you for sandstone and limestone, they are ideal and the best option available for a longer lasting anchor.

We have a couple going in to a reto-bolting project here in Central Texas where the mechanical bolts just cant take the abuse over time. I'll post a video of how it went!
Chris Vinson
Joined Jul 9, 2012
67 points
Administrator
Jul 20, 2012
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
i don't think RRG sandstone would be considered soft, at least not compared to many other sandstones. slim
Joined Dec 1, 2004
2,067 points
Administrator
Jul 20, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
It may be slightly softer than the NRG nuttal sandstone, but that's about it. Definitely harder than typical western sandstone. Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Joined Jul 30, 2011
1,004 points
Jul 20, 2012
Which way again?
Slim, the porous nature of it is what often makes people think it's soft. Every sandstone area has its good+bad rock, as well. I love Corbin, and guarantee you we could find total dirt chossbucket nastiness at pretty much every cliff at the Red, usually within a hundred feet or so of an amazing overhung classic, or often just at the base, on a different strata of rock than most of the climb. Just like El Cap has rotten shard piles like the Black Cave that are going to be garbage no matter how unbelievably perfect the rock was on the previous pitches.

I'm all for using glue-ins to replace bolts in Corbin-the porous nature means that water drains thru, meaning glue in stainless should last really, really long.
Cunning Linguist
Joined Feb 15, 2007
2,478 points
Jul 20, 2012
Chris Vinson wrote:
They are also made with 316L stainless which would make them ideal for salt water environments like Thailand too.


You won´t find too many in the industry that share that view, nor will you find any 300 series for areas of high corrosion risk in the next UIAA standard.
Jim Titt
From Germany
Joined Nov 10, 2009
195 points
Jul 21, 2012
Thanks for the correction Jim, you got me there, Thailand was a terrible example. Lets say Kalymnos instead, I'm sure this point could be debated as well.

Although the problem with titanium is...hahaha oh man this could go on forever.

I have read the threads in the past. No need to drag this topic along.

+1 on the wavebolts though, great product for glue-ins. Affordable, cool design but Isaac always seem to be out of stock!
Chris Vinson
Joined Jul 9, 2012
67 points
Jul 21, 2012
Aric Datesman wrote:
Do you mean other than opinions about Wave's quite misleading testing in comparison to Bolt Products bolts, in which they compared pullout strength with the holes for the Bolt Products bolts drilled oversize? No, no opinions. Other than the obvious.


I think I missed this - source/etc? You're saying they tested half inch bolts in 9/16 holes or something?
John Braun
From Hendersonville, NC
Joined Feb 3, 2011
23 points
Jul 21, 2012
John Braun wrote:
I think I missed this - source/etc? You're saying they tested half inch bolts in 9/16 holes or something?


It was something along those lines... The Bolt-Products need a Metric hole and they drilled an incorrect-size-for-the-bolt English hole and then went on and on how the Bolt-Products bolts were inferior because they wouldn't stay in the hole. Was a big ugly mess on RC when Jim Titt called them out on it. I don't remember when it was or which forum (Lab/GH/general?) but should be easy enough to find.
Aric Datesman
Joined Sep 16, 2008
145 points


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