"A6+ in the Fisher Towers?"

How?

It's my understanding that an A5 pitch is led entirely on gear that is "body weight only" leaving the potential for a fall twice the length of the pitch if any one piece fails. I also believed that the theoretical grade of A6 would describe a pitch that is led on A5 gear, on an anchor consisting of only A5--"body weight only"--pieces. The reason that it's a theoretical grade being that in order for the rating to be verified, an entire team would need to be ripped from the wall.

So basically, the way I understand it is if a pitch is truly A6, the failure of any single piece of gear means potential death for the team.

So I'm wondering if there's anything I'm missing with these guys throwing the A6+ rating out there? Is there some aspect that I'm not considering? I just don't see what A6+ means or how it can exist. Hopefully someone can enlighten me.

Thanks in advance.

--Marc

P.S. I'm not trying to take anything away from these guys in any way, shape or form. One only has to look at the middle pic in the above link to know that what they pulled off is one impressive feat regardless of whether or not their rating holds up.

i think its because the belay anchors are sketch too.
they belayed on hooks. yikes!

EDIT: but whatever happened to "its all C1 unless a piece rips", mentality?

It probably has to do with rock quality and reliability. An A5 placement in granite is a little different that one in emalgamated mud. But I don't really know, I don't aid climb. It could also be that an "inflated" ego allows for "less than body weight" placements, but again, I don't aid climb, so I have no idea...

This is why A6 doesn't exist.

Only if it is not a closed end system of grading. At which point if it is not you define the requirements of the next level. The only thing in agreement at that point is that someone is going to disagree.

What's with the "+"? Why not just call it A7?

Does A6+ mean two people have to die in order to get the "6" and then the "+?"

I like this reasoning:

Maybe because your wrong in assuming the A0/A5 scale is based on danger to the climber.

The aid system has more traditionally become associated with "danger of the climb" but you are missing the fact that the aid system is based on the quality of the holds.
And not the chances of injury.
It's not based on "objective hazards"

So -- Vertical Limit, get's the plus??
If it almost takes out the lower climbing team, it's just a 6 -- if you only take out one member of the lower team, it's a 6+; if you take out the entire lower climbing team, it's a 7; If you take out all the teams on the wall is that an 8 or a 7+ ??

What I like best about that movie is they filmed the base camp scenes in New Zealand, in the summer, and a bunch of their shots got ruined by massive swarms of moths.

So, you can basically start a C0, then blow out all the bolts, in turn you may get the grade of 6 to 8 depending on how you fall??

what if you use half ropes and take out 3 routes simultaneously? I could get a 10!

Assuming this route is in the valley....

A5 - the leader dies in a fall

A6 - the leader and belayer die in a fall

A7 - Everyone watching in El Cap meadow dies

(idea stolen from AG)

Yup.
Fully legit.

you will also be seeing hot flashes on WI8+- this winter.
Stay tuned.

as a fat old aid climber...

I have three modes:
cruisin'
gripped
awkward (not hard, but not cruisin either)

There are in reality only two to three grades

NTB not too bad (A.1)
PDH pretty damn hard(A.2+ - canadian rockies style)
YDFS you'll die for sure (A.hard)

I'd add the awkward grade- just not fun but you are going up.

I've fallen on #0 heads, I've fallen on #0 RP's, I've fallen on hooks and all held. I've pulled good pins on a fall and skated cams. I've never been hurt other than a bloody finger and another pulled tendon etc on another finger.

there is no A.6.

no no no.

A6= You die.
A6+= You die and are relegated to aiding magma columns in hell.

Climb'a please!
No.
No A6. No WI7.
"A6+" did what it was intended to do... get the magazines to notice.

So you have climbed the test piece routes in the Fischers RickD?

I don't know how hard the route is, but I know I will never climb it. I can guarantee I won't ever belay from that bad of an anchor. It should be noted that Beyer often would TR solo some of his aid pitches to see if they were possible..I think that takes a bit out of the route right there. Are there any other FA's in the Fischers that did not use any expansion bolts?

A6+ is when you fall, you both die, and most of the route falls down on top of you.

kevin-

not the test pieces but some of the others and have nailed far worse rock than the fishers. moab's a long drive so I go a little south (he, hehe)

plus, I drink on occasion with a well known aficionado of beyer/bartlett routes.

FYI, my post was based on the fact we have an accepted scale and it is closed at the top. We have already lowered the ratings of old school routes to take into account that new routes are harder... we should continue this and not confuse the whole thing by now opening the upper end up.
It goes from A0 to A5+.

Why shouldn't A6+ be possible? Free climbing has gone up to 5.15 god knows what. By saying its not possible is to narrow minded and if everyone thought this way there would be no 5.15, no WI5, and sure as shit no light and fast alpine climbing. Everyones view of climbing is different and if someone has had enough aid experience with the right mind set why couldn't they put up an A6+ route? To say its impossible is just a bad way to look at things. It can be questioned and tested but nothing is impossible.

IMO, pushing grades in other disiplines is valid due to the protection. In Aid, if I come across a section so sketchy that I believe I will die and kill my team if I fall, I'm gonna drill a hole, chip a hold etc.

Why? Becasue the cost of blowing the move/gear means death. Not a big whipper/30 ft highball fall.

If I top rope it first, I'm going to test the peices which means it's not A6..becasue they didn't blow and I used them.

I just dont see anyone actually sacking up and pushing it that far.

I'll agree with sam, push everything down.

The only challenges that remain are holes vs no holes. These guys used holes (bolts) and have not reported hole count. Beyer said he used no holes, yet Wings guys said they found holes as have some others.

• *in 1984, 9 o clock wall, bob shonerd, "time machine".**