Belaying with doubles

Hey all!

Just wondering, if there are two followers, is there any reason not to have them both belaying on one rope each? I can't see how it'd cause a problem but just wanted to ask some people with experience.

That's a common and perfectly good way to bring up two followers at once. There are some issues to be aware of:

• If using a guide plate, and one climber is hanging on the rope, it is possible that the tension from that rope will pull the plate into a position that prevents the other rope from locking reliably if the other follower falls. This is especially a concern if the route traverses, leading to a possibly large angle between the tension on the two ropes. It is more important to keep good control of the brake strand in this situation.
• If not using a guide plate (or using it in non guide mode), belaying two people at once can be really difficult with respect to rope management. I have done it, but I don't recommend it.
• If the route traverses, it is very important to properly protect both followers. In some cases, this means clipping both ropes to the same piece (with two draws), or placing more gear.

Edit: I see that you wrote "belaying" and not "belayed". I guess you could have each follower belay on one strand, but why? Things could get exciting if you fall and both your belayers get lifted up and potentially into each other...

Mathias wrote:Hey all! Just wondering, if there are two followers, is there any reason not to have them both belaying on one rope each? I can't see how it'd cause a problem but just wanted to ask some people with experience.

You mean like when there is one person leading, the two back at the anchor are each independently belaying the leader from separate strands?

Doesn't sound intrinsically bad (offers some redundancy), but it comes at a cost. The first cost is that the two belayers need to pay attention to one another to stay in sync, which seems more complicated than just paying attention to the climber.

Second, if you're multi-pitching it, having a single person belaying means the other person can be eating / drinking / taking butt shots or whatever. Seems like the independent belayer thing would be relatively slower since additional time would need to be taken to eat / drink / etc.

That is a perfectly acceptable way to do it. On hard leads they can micro manage each rope better than a single belayer can. Provided they can both know how to belay properly. It's a good solution to a team with second that don't have a lot of practice belaying with doubles.

Another advantage to having only one follower belaying is that the other follower is free to help manage any tangles in the rope, while the belayer remains 100% on task.

If I'm the non-belaying follower sometimes I'll pre-fetch about 20-40ft. of rope off the stack(s) and keep it flaked over my leg or tie-in and feed it to the belayer. That leaves plenty of time to sort out any tangles on the stack before the belayer catches up to them. Often if I'm belaying solo I'll do the same thing, with the main stack on my tie-in and a few loops on an ankle. Being short-roped in the middle of the crux sucks. Don't be that guy!

All good thoughts.

It'll be a new experience for all of us (but on easy terrain for my leading abilities). And I thought the redundancy might be nice and would make the belaying easier. And I suppose, providing we can hear each other, calling "Clipping red!" will get me plenty enough slack on one line without worrying about the integrity of my belay on the blue side. Plus one belayer will be pretty new but a good meat anchor, and the other much more experienced but also much smaller.

Unless anyone can think of a good mechanical reason not to do this, I think we'll try it.

As far as protecting traverses for two followers goes, can I just add a second biner to the slings, rather than use two slings? Seems like it'd be fine, though I don't expect much traversing on the first outing with doubles and two followers.

Mathias wrote:As far as protecting traverses for two followers goes, can I just add a second biner to the slings, rather than use two slings? Seems like it'd be fine, though I don't expect much traversing on the first outing with doubles and two followers.

no just clip both ropes into each biner.

Mathias wrote:Hey all! Just wondering, if there are two followers, is there any reason not to have them both belaying on one rope each? I can't see how it'd cause a problem but just wanted to ask some people with experience.

I do this alot and it's really standard. I've looked at the setup of the plate (I use the kong GiGi) when I was first learning it, and it didn't seem dangerous in any reasonable situation.

I wouldn't take up a party of 3 if anyone was marginal on the route and needed aid, etc. Assuming this, it's alot faster than one at a time.

remember that the friction for lead belaying on a single thin rope is quite a bit lower than using them as twins or doubles where yr more likely to grasp both strands in a fall

using two carabiners in this case may be prudent

if you have one person doing all the belaying and the second doing the rope management, that person effectively backups the belayer

the best use of using two belayers for halves is not for moderate multi ... but for sketchy leads where the rope needs to be managed perfectly to prevent you from decking,to help you make tough clips or manage rope drag better

heres an example ...

youtube.com/watch?v=FH82iIp…

;)

I hadn't considered using a second biner on the belay devices, but that's a very good idea. It would need to be a match pair of lockers, right?

I'm also wondering more generally about one person belaying on doubles:

If red was clipped last, the breaking hand focus would be on red with minimal pressure on blue, correct? And then if blue is clipped next slack would be fed out only on blue for the clip, then the breaking focus would shift to blue, yes? Then ideally, slack would be taken in on blue as the climber moved up to the placement, but fed out on red. Then as the climber moves above the placement, they're fed out together?

If the climber has clipped one rope twice or more in succession, the focus on breaking with the other rope would drop substantially wouldn't it?

One belayer on each rope is the deluxe set-up from the leading perspective, although it may not be the most efficient use of team power on multipitch routes of any length. There are no coordination issues unless the leader needs to be lowered; other than that, if each belayer just pays attention to the leader and does what has to be done, everything will be perfect.

The second carabiner for extra device friction may well be a good idea; a better idea is to be using a belay device that really can handle a fall on one strand, since whether your grip is improved or impeded by having a second strand to grip is not entirely clear to me.

As for the sequences you mention, yes, but I at least never think in terms of "brake hand focus." I grip the two strands together the same way I'd grip a single strand and clamp down for a fall just as for a single strand.

The big handling difference, as you describe, is in taking in the high clipped strand while paying out the non-clipped strand until both are back to being paid out together. Failing to do this negates an important advantage of half ropes and would be viewed as incompetent belaying in that context. Of course, if there are two belayers, these things happen automatically.

I've found that one key to reacting properly to the leader's actions is to watch the ropes just in front of you. If you do this, you'll know immediately which one has to be pumped out, and while the leader is moving you can constantly adjust the strands so they hang with the same amount of slack. You'll find that it is much harder to do this right if you just watch the leader, and then you'll end up pumping slack out in both ropes when you only should be pumping out one strand---this is bad.

Mathias wrote:I hadn't considered using a second biner on the belay devices, but that's a very good idea. It would need to be a match pair of lockers, right? I'm also wondering more generally about one person belaying on doubles: If red was clipped last, the breaking hand focus would be on red with minimal pressure on blue, correct? And then if blue is clipped next slack would be fed out only on blue for the clip, then the breaking focus would shift to blue, yes? Then ideally, slack would be taken in on blue as the climber moved up to the placement, but fed out on red. Then as the climber moves above the placement, they're fed out together? If the climber has clipped one rope twice or more in succession, the focus on breaking with the other rope would drop substantially wouldn't it?

the lockers should be matching

as to taking in and giving out at the same time ... IMO its a bit overated

the rope clipped to the top piece is the one that matters ... im absolutely fine with the belayer feeding a bit more slack on the bottom rope and focusing on the top rope ... that way it doesnt have to be a totally simultaneous process

for braking simply grip both strands solidly and bring yr hand down to yr hip ...

my suggestion is that you get one person to do the belaying on each pitch ... and have both belay you over the climb ... as the second "belayer" simply managers the rope, youll be backed up as long as you instruct them properly

that way they both get experience belaying on halves on something you wont fall on anyways

and if yr worried or if theres any pitch where the follower may take a swing fall, use em as twins

;)

Thanks for the replies, everyone. rgold and bearbreeder, you are fountains of knowledge, as per usual.

I could start a new thread about this, but as it gets even more complicated with doubles or twins, I'd really appreciate some advice for stacking rope when belaying a follower. I've tried stacking on top on the section of rope I tie in with, but it still leads to issues when it comes to feeding back out, this past saturday it happened when swinging leads. Maybe making each loop slightly shorter than the last would work better?

Making the loops shorter as you progress is advisable.

Mathias wrote:Thanks for the replies, everyone. rgold and bearbreeder, you are fountains of knowledge, as per usual. I could start a new thread about this, but as it gets even more complicated with doubles or twins, I'd really appreciate some advice for stacking rope when belaying a follower. I've tried stacking on top on the section of rope I tie in with, but it still leads to issues when it comes to feeding back out, this past saturday it happened when swinging leads. Maybe making each loop slightly shorter than the last would work better?

For swing leads stack the could in progressively shorter lengths.

Lately I've been coiling in a different manner. Provided there are no real obstacles directly below the belay.
Lower out a loop of rope so it's just above the obstacle below you, maximum of 5 meters down. The a knot on a bite in the rope and clip it into a spare biner. Send down another loop slightly shorter and make another knot, clipping it into the same biner. A single biner can easily hold 4 loops. Continue with a second biner until all the for is up. Use a 3rd if needed.
This only works when you have clean rock below you, so adjust as needed. It does make the belay way more comfortable and route easier to manage.

If you're block leading do the same thing but make each progressive loop longer. Once the partner is at the belay, clip the loops in a reverse order to a different biner.

If using double, tie a single knot with both ropes but only clip one of the loops.

rocknice2, that's a really cool idea. I guess if I had two follows I'd need to keep the ropes separate even if they were climbing at the same time, but maybe not. I'd been thinking about using my PAS (redundant anchor as I tie in with the rope) and keeping it loose to stack one of the ropes on, but this idea seems even better. I can hang the biners off whatever is convenient and then hand them over to the belayer(s) when I lead the next pitch. I'll try it.

What do you think about putting a loop in the rope to go onto the biner instead of a knot on a bight? I'm imagining a bight twisted 180 degrees and the inverted 180 degrees. So the rope would go through the biner, wrap around, through the biner again and then down. It'd take up a little more space but be easier to do one handed and easier to undo for the next belay. Thoughts?

Oh, if I was blocking leads the order would need reversing, which could be trickier than using a knot.

Just tie the knots loosely and they are easy to untie.