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Lead Belay question...

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By Junior
From Morrison, Co
Jan 16, 2007

So lets say I'm leading a single pitch sport climb weighing in at around 175lbs... My belayer is around 120lbs.

Do you recommend the belayer tying in to something on the ground (No Fall Hazard for belayer) or not tying in and being pulled up...

Is this just a personal preference thing or are there things to consider. If so what are the considerations??

Good on ya

Junior

By saxfiend
Administrator
From Atlanta, GA
Jan 16, 2007
Relaxing at the P1 belay of Fruit Loops at Rumbling Bald.

It depends on the ground conditions, of course, but in most circumstances, I wouldn't anchor myself to belay a sport climb, even if the climber outweighed me like you're describing. The belayer probably won't get pulled up much if any unless you fall before you clip the second bolt. You'll get a softer catch if the belayer isn't anchored.

JL

By Joshua Blake
From Colorado Springs
Jan 16, 2007
Snaffel hounds suck

Remember it's a bit uncomfortable to be jerked off the ground and then suddenly stopped by a anchor so the belayer has to keep the anchor taut. Additionally as stated before it'll make the leader's fall more dynamic.

By Brian Scoggins
From Laramie, WY
Jan 17, 2007

In such a situation, your belayer should camp out as close to directly under the first bolt as possible. Being jerked straight up ain't so bad, but having to deal with swinging too can cause a person to lose control of the belay.

By Mike Lane
From Centennial, CO
Jan 17, 2007
Almost there......

This is the route description of Swinging Sirloin at Castlewood:
"The furthest route left on the Falls Wall is a steep little thing that arcs a bit left on sharp edges and thin pockets. Named during the FA when Mike Lane took a whipper lifting his belayer half way up the route. Nice continuous climbing with good solid climbing."

I've pulled several belayers off the ground as much as 8 feet or so. I can think of very few sport routes that even have anything to tie off to. Every situation has its own answer, but generally I think its best for the belayer to reside 2-3 paces away from the wall so that there's enough reaction time to kick the feet up and cushion the impact of being pulled into the wall. The price for this is few more feet of dropping for the leader, so adjust this to thier exposure.

Now at the other extreme is the concept of "penalty slack" for bad form, trash talking, etc.

By Tom Hanson
From Castle Rock, CO
Jan 17, 2007
Busted

Keeping the belayer unanchored adds some dynamics to the belay, lessening the impact force on the bolts, draws, etc.
Anchoring the belayer also prevents the belayer from utilizing the "Edwin Moses belay stance" which is where the belayer can be ready to run downhill if the leader comes off high above the last piece of pro, thus taking up additional slack, which is often faster than yarding the cord thru the belay device.

Mike, I can't remember who was belaying you when you whipped on Swinging Sirloin. You, and I, were a bit lighter back then.
Who was the lucky guy who caught you?

By Mark Nelson
From Coniferous, CO
Jan 17, 2007
 In a zoo in California, a mother tiger gave birth to a rare set of triplet tiger cubs.    Unfortunately, due to complications in the pregnancy, the cubs were born prematurely and due to their tiny size, they died shortly after birth. <br /><br />The mother tiger after recovering from the delivery, suddenly started to decline in health, although physically she was fine. The veterinarians felt that the loss of her litter had caused the tigress to fall into a depression. The doctors decided that if the tigress could surrogate another mother's cubs, perhaps she would improve. <br /><br />After checking with many other zoos across the country, the depressing news was that there were no tiger cubs of the right age to introduce to the mourning  mother. The veterinarians decided to try something that had never been  tried in a zoo environment. Sometimes a mother of one species will take on the care of a different species. The only "orphans" that could be found quickly, were a litter of weaner pigs.  The zoo keepers and vets wrapped the piglets in tiger skin and placed the babies around the mother tiger.<br />

I'm going for anchoring the belayer, then teaching the belayer how to be dynamic with the device & rope. Though this particular example is a single pitch sport route, getting the belayer used to anchoring transitions right into multi-pitch climbs.

One other thing I do is get the belayer tied into the back end of the rope, so a lowering accident is prevented.

A big assumption I read into is that the climber will remain on route & having bolts at regular intervals; any type of runout & fall is going to jack the crap out of the belayer much worse than taking those controlled falls in the gym. I'm still going with the odds in using anchoring as opposed to running away from the route.

By Sam Lightner, Jr.
Jan 17, 2007
The Shield

I wouldn't bother with the anchor. Your fall will, if friction isn't factored in, only add up to like 87 pds of force. That's at most. Friction will cut that dramatically. by not having an anchor it will actually make the system safer cus it will add a dynamic flow to the stop.
The only thing is the belayer should be more or less straight under the first piece. If not, she is gonna get yanked into the wall.

By Ron Olsen
Administrator
From Boulder, CO
Jan 17, 2007
In the cow pasture below the Tre Cime de Lavaredo, after climbing Spitagoras, a 12-pitch 10a route.<br /><br />Photo by <a href='/u/bruce_hildenbrand/11057'>Bruce Hildenbrand</a>

Two points:

  • Most people sport climbing don't bring trad racks or slings to build anchors.

  • Many (most?) sport routes don't have any place to set an anchor for the belayer even if they did have a rack and slings.

The reality is that most people belaying sport leads are not going to be anchored. The important thing is to use the most effective way to belay and catch a leader fall given this situation.

I agree with others who recommend positioning the belayer near the wall and under the first bolt, so the direction of force is straight up in the event of a leader fall. The belayer can also brace a foot against the wall to provide some stability.

By Richard Radcliffe
From Louisville, CO
Jan 17, 2007

Mark Nelson wrote:
One other thing I do is get the belayer tied into the back end of the rope, so a lowering accident is prevented.


This is probably more important than the question at hand. I don't have numbers in front of me, but I'm betting that neglecting to deal with the other end of the cord is the single greatest cause (by far) of serious accidents at "sport" crags.

By Mark Nelson
From Coniferous, CO
Jan 17, 2007
 In a zoo in California, a mother tiger gave birth to a rare set of triplet tiger cubs.    Unfortunately, due to complications in the pregnancy, the cubs were born prematurely and due to their tiny size, they died shortly after birth. <br /><br />The mother tiger after recovering from the delivery, suddenly started to decline in health, although physically she was fine. The veterinarians felt that the loss of her litter had caused the tigress to fall into a depression. The doctors decided that if the tigress could surrogate another mother's cubs, perhaps she would improve. <br /><br />After checking with many other zoos across the country, the depressing news was that there were no tiger cubs of the right age to introduce to the mourning  mother. The veterinarians decided to try something that had never been  tried in a zoo environment. Sometimes a mother of one species will take on the care of a different species. The only "orphans" that could be found quickly, were a litter of weaner pigs.  The zoo keepers and vets wrapped the piglets in tiger skin and placed the babies around the mother tiger.<br />

One assumption I made in this particular question from Junior was having an anchor (natural block/tree, bolt, trad gear, etc.) available and then deciding whether or not to use it.

I think the question wanted to address the method of how we attempt soft-catching (dynamic belaying) & what position the belayer is in prior to the fall.


Also - If I'm 100% certain of the route & rope lengths, then I don't bother with the back-end; like N Table in Golden, everything is short. But to do the same thing elsewhere (or using someone elses rope), I go right into safety checks & tie-in both. Stopper knot works also.

By Josh Squire
From Jamaica Plain
Jan 17, 2007
This climb is called Toe Jam. Super nice climb. I thought it was a little stiff, but then again, everything is stiff there.

Junior wrote:
So lets say I'm leading a single pitch sport climb weighing in at around 175lbs... My belayer is around 120lbs. Do you recommend the belayer tying in to something on the ground (No Fall Hazard for belayer) or not tying in and being pulled up... Is this just a personal preference thing or are there things to consider. If so what are the considerations?? Good on ya Junior


Generally, I tell my clients, if you outweigh your belayer by 30 or more pounds, to seriously consider anchoring. It's true, that anchoring considerably takes away one of your best assets as a belayer; movement. But.....if a heavier climber were to fall early (i.e 1st or 2nd bolt), then it can put quite a bit of force on the belayer, sending the belayer for a ride. If the climber is 60 feet up, then no big deal, but if they are close to the ground then the climbers weight becomes a big deal, when the climber hits the deck.

In the end, it is you who must make decisions when you are climbing. It's not always the decisions you make, but knowing that you have to make one in the first place. That said, if I were you, and you thought you had a chance of falling early, then I would ask him/her to anchor. It might not be a super soft catch, but it will be softer than hitting the ground.

Josh

By trundlebum
From Henderson NV
Nov 19, 2007
Somewhere in Tuolumne, sometime early 80's

Junior wrote:
So lets say I'm leading a single pitch sport climb weighing in at around 175lbs... My belayer is around 120lbs. Do you recommend the belayer tying in to something on the ground (No Fall Hazard for belayer) or not tying in and being pulled up... Is this just a personal preference thing or are there things to consider. If so what are the considerations?? Good on ya Junior


It sounds stupid but:
just because you (the belayer) are on the ground is not a good reason for your tie in to leave your harness in the same direction as the lead rope.

No seriously I have seen it time and time again, the belayer standing 12' from the base of the crag/climb, tied in to an anchor on the start of the pitch.

Why bother tie in ?

If you feel it prudent (and sometimes it is) to anchor while on the ground (or huge ledge) then at least:
Bother to anchor for the direction of the pull.

I once saw a French duo at the top of Monday morning slab on Glacier point apron, the leader was 1/2 way up a very run out pitch, maybe 30' out from the one bolt he had clipped.
The belayer was standing with a 2' tall flake between his feet and the main wall. The belayer's tie in was a bolt about 4' above his head on the main slab.

Either that guy should not have been tied in at all
(so he could dive off/down Monday morning slab if his leader peeled)
or shouldv'e built an anchor in the many cracks below him.

The set up these guys had... If the leader had peeled, no doubt that belayer was going for almost as much of a slider as the leader except starting with a serious face plant to the slab ahead.

By Dave S
From Laramie, WY
Nov 19, 2007

I weigh 127 pounds and have climbed with many guys as big as you and have caught their falls easily without being anchored. I don't know how many times I've been pulled about 3-6 feet up the rock while catching fairly big falls, but with experience it feels totally safe and natural. The benefit is a dynamic belay and less complex rigging.

Having said that, I would recommend not anchoring if your belayer is used to catching lead falls - they are way different than TR falls. There is some multi-tasking going on for the belayer in this scenario. One, the brake hand goes back. But also, the light belayer will simultaneously have to put a foot out on the rock or he will get scraped up the face. If its a big fall, he will take a couple steps up the wall while the climber is pulling him up with the force of the fall. If you don't think your belayer is capable of that, maybe its better to anchor.

And of course your belayer is wearing a helmet the whole time and is not standing out from the wall nor under a roof.

By Tony Bubb
From Boulder, CO
Nov 20, 2007
Many Strange creatures inhabit the Wonderland of Rock in Jtree- here the giant Stone sealion surfaces through the grown with a furrowed brow and his mouth agape. Photo by Tony Bubb, 12/03.

In college I weighed 170-ish. My 2 lighter partners weighed in at ~125 and ~112, respectively. The former rarely got much more than a few feet up, but for the latter, I frequently skipped a clip or escewed low gear on overhangs to prevent whacking her into the cliff. There is a fine line and some of it depends on how many pieces you place.
Eventually, we settled on clipping the lighter of the two to a pack full of whatever, like water jugs and such, so that if she got picked up more than a few feet, the leash would go tight and that was it. It worked pretty well.


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