By Zed
From Gotham City
Jan 28, 2008
| SMH wrote: Some things should not have to be stated explicitly. This is not, as you have implied, a problem that is unique to me. I have MANY female climbing friends and we have all had the same experience to some extent. All of us. I'm willing to admit that there are super fabulous male 20-somethings that I am sure would make great mentors. But many also have egos the size of Russia and are willing to be unsafe if they think it will impress a girl. I'm not trying to stereotype, just say that most of my mentors have been climbing for 20+ years and have had enough luck/common sense to make it to 30.
Yes some things absolutely do need to be stated explicitly. Doing so also shows common courtesy and respect for the other person.
And why the hell would you ever look to a twenty-year-old to mentor you, unless he or she had been climbing from age two? I'm sorry, Sarah, but your argument is becoming as shortsighted as Tony's. |  |
By SMH
Jan 28, 2008
| Precisely my point, Ken, thanks for hammering it home. I was simply responding to the dude who suggested I was being ageist by saying most 20-somethings weren't the best mentors. But I believe he was also saying that the mature gentlemen playing post-war were departing from the question at hand and giving the older mentors I was suggesting a bad name.
Wasn't the original question something about finding a good trad mentor?? Maybe we could start giving advise... | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Jan 28, 2008
| SMH wrote: Maybe we could start giving advise...
I think we already are, Sarah. We are doing what human beings do. We are communicating our thoughts about these issues. These are the same types of conversations that might occur between climbing mentors and proteges.
Understand that this thread was not opened by a inexperienced kid. Dave Holliday is an educated adult, and he is an experienced climber. He opened this thread to pass on what he found to be an interesting discussion taking place on RC.Com.
Lets take Tony or myself, for example. Regardless of personal style, we both possess a great deal of climbing experience and have much to offer a new climber in terms of competent information. Beyond that, it all boils down to how two people (mentor and protege) get along. Some might like him and hate me, and others, the opposite. Some might like us both for different reasons, and others might think that we both should go suck pond water. There is an ass for every seat.
One could argue that Mark Nelson's beer advice is silly and not pertinent to the discussion, but I disagree. His comment shows that not only does he have a sense of humor but that he knows how to put people at ease. That is also the great trait for a mentor. The bottom line is that useful knowledge comes in all shapes and sizes, and it is up to us to look for and recognize it when it presents itself. At the end of the day, the mentor's most important task is to impart a sense of safety consciousness and the importance of competence into the mind of the protege.
As for the tone of this discussion, what you see as conflict, I see as an honest and engaging discussion. Don't try to dictate how people should be fed information. People are pretty intelligent and can pull from a discussion what they need. | |
By Heather Haynes
From Colorado Springs
Jan 28, 2008
| so if we say you're right,ken, will you quit lecturing us? naw...i agree with the dea that it's just good ol communication...as long as one person doesn't have to one-up everyone constantly!!!
SMH---i like how you think, em me if you wanna climb
and check on the free beer...i'll keep that in mind.:) | |
By SAL
From broomdigiddy
Jan 28, 2008
| I am not in any place to be a mentor to anyone but my son but I just thought I would throw that out for a laugh.
Thanks SMH for catching that one :)
Yes, so how do you attract one??? I think the answer may be you should not "attract" one but go find one. Choose your own. Someone you respect, admire and trust.
Boo YA! | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Jan 28, 2008
| Heather Haynes wrote: so if we say you're right,ken, will you quit lecturing us? SMH---i like how you think and check on the free beer...i'll keep that in mind.:)
No one is making you read my posts, Heather. Just don't look if it's so painful. | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Jan 28, 2008
| CascadeKid wrote: Aren't you dictating how people are fed information. Besides, whatever happened to the person who was advocating tolerance for another's way of life. . . re: boomboxes at the crags If Tony's a sexist pig, eah well, that's his problem
If you actually read my posts, you would have seen were I said that Tony is just as entitled to his opinions as anyone else. Pay attention.
Btw, did you go through the entire process of opening an account just so that you could say that? Maybe you are Tony masquerading as CascadeKid. Tricky. | |
By Tony Bubb
From Boulder, CO
Jan 28, 2008
| OK, so to be totally off-topic to get back on-topic, there are a few pals I've made over the years that I am happy to basically "guide" for because it works well for me.
I.E.:
One gets great food and a selection of it for trips and even though he is not a morning person, totally gets up early to climb because he knows I am impatient & gagging to go in the AM- my vice, not his. But he not only accepts it, he goes out of his way to accomodate it.
One loaned me her car while I was in town, and gave me a room to stay in on a road trip.
One is willing to climb whatever I am into, incluing wilderness slogs to choss-piles.
What is in common: Well, first off, I enjoy their company- each of them. Second, they each know that they are getting something and go out of thier way to give back... And that my friends, is basically "free beer." Nelson has it right, at least metaphorically. | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Jan 28, 2008
| CascadeKid wrote: No I didn't and no I'm not.
So you just joined the site today, and you've never been here before, but you act as though you know me well enough to dictate how I should post? I see. Aren't you glad that you are incognito? | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Jan 29, 2008
| Tony Bubb wrote: Ken, if you were worth it, I'd be insulted at you saying I was posing as other people to argue with you.
This is what I said:
Tony Bubb wrote: Maybe you are Tony masquerading as CascadeKid.
I could use your tactic of ranting about how you put words in my mouth, but I won't. I will just assume that you jumped to conclusions because you didn't read my post carefully enough.
It is hard for me not to believe that you aren't overly sensitive to my comments, because of the lengths to which you will go to defend yourself. Had you responded to my initial criticism by saying something like: "You're entitled to your opinion but I don't agree.", I would have recognized that as your being comfortable with your position while also not feeling attacked at my having an alternative opinion. Had that happened, we would have moved on at that point.
I will admit that I find your defensiveness somewhat entertaining, so I tend to egg it on once you say certain things. I know this sounds insulting, but you act like Pavlov's dog in these situations. When I ring the bell, you start foaming at the mouth.
P's dogs drooled at the bell because they associated the bell with dinner time. Although not exactly the same, you foam at the mouth when hearing my criticisms because you see them as an affront to your intelligence (ego). You hate this because you can't stand the idea of being wrong, just like when you mistook one route for another and argued with Bob D., Steve Levin, and others to the point of making yourself look ridiculous, and still couldn't cope with being wrong.
And for those folks who think that discussions like this have nothing to do with the topic, think again. Most people process information on an emotional level, and it is no different between mentors and proteges, so maybe we should just reconcile with that fact and incorporate it into the discussion. A protege needs to understand that his or her mentor is human and will deal with situations on an emotional level.
This is important because misunderstandings can be unnerving for someone who is in a vulnerable position and looking to the mentor to keep him or her safe. I dealt with this on a regular basis when teaching climbing for the Boulder Rock School. Yes, my students were paying customers, although the dynamic was in many ways the same as that between mentors and proteges in that the customers (students) and proteges are both looking to you for guidance. As a mentor or instructor, it is up to you to anticipate this and tailor your approach in order to avoid causing your student unnecessary nervousness and insecurity.
Being a mentor isn't about how well you climb or how many years you've been doing it. It is about knowing how to relate to your student in a way that nurtures his or her development, and the key to achieving that is to tune into their thought process so that you know how to deliver the information in a way that they will understand and, more importantly, accept. | |
By andrea maserati
Jan 29, 2008
| I don't think I would want Ken or Tony to mentor me based on all the he said/he said crap they keep posting? Grow up the both of you!
Post information based on the topic thats helpful and leave it alone. | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Jan 29, 2008
| andrea maserati wrote: I don't think I would want Ken or Tony to mentor me based on all the he said/he said crap they keep posting? Grow up the both of you! Post information based on the topic thats helpful and leave it alone.
To each his or her own, Andrea. My last post addressed some very important aspects of mentoring and had everything to do with the topic. Maybe you should pay closer attention.
And to Brad,
Don't waste your or my time time filling my Email up with anymore of your useless lectures, because I have allocated your address to the spam box. If you have anything to say to me, say it here or keep it to yourself. | |
By cisco manzo
Jan 29, 2008
| Ken take a time out or I will have your comments on this site allocated to a spam box.
Group hug everybody. | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Jan 29, 2008
| cisco manzo wrote: Ken take a time out or I will have your comments on this site allocated to a spam box.
Have at it.
cisco manzo wrote: Group hug everybody.
When unable to handle adult dialog, resort to mollycoddling and group hugs. What is this - the toddler hour? | |
By Shumin Wu
Jan 29, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: Being a mentor isn't about how well you climb or how many years you've been doing it. It is about knowing how to relate to your student in a way that nurtures his or her development, and the key to achieving that is to tune into their thought process so that you know how to deliver the information in a way that they will understand and, more importantly, accept.
When did it become the burden of the experienced to be a good "mentor"? Whatever happened to watch & learn with an occasional question? Or have the new generation climbers been spoon fed by school teachers for too long?
andrea maserati wrote: I don't think I would want Ken or Tony to mentor me based on all the he said/he said crap they keep posting? Grow up the both of you!
Whether or not the 2 needs to grow up, it's generally advisable to show some respect to those you have much to learn from... sigh. | |
By cisco manzo
Jan 29, 2008
| Sarcasm dude!
I cant decide whether you need some ice cream or an emotional enema? But it looks like your co-dependent with your computer and thats sad.
Maybe you could do something more useful to your ego and your time like put another climbing related sticker on your car or go buy some new prana tights and sport them on over to the coffee shop.
You do wear tights...right?
Love to continue but my lunch breaks over and some of us do work. | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Jan 29, 2008
| Thank you, all. Now we have lots of material to work with.
Every one of you who has made the concerted effort to focus on lecturing Tony and myself is now guilty of the very thing of which you accused us.
You have proven that you are more interested in having a target, than you are in sticking to the topic. Silence and forbearance were always your options but you instead chose to strike. Tony and I did not Svengali you into that action. You did it all on your own.
So stop being hypocrites, and PLEASE say something that contributes to the topic. And, for Christ's sake, stop your damn whining.
Cheers
BTW, cisco, stay in your own pay grade; sarcasm requires intellect and wit - both of which you clearly lack. | |
By Dpurf
From Superior
Jan 29, 2008
| Let me see if I got this right.
Bla, bla bla bla bla bla bla.
Yep, I think I got it.
Thanks
PS, My daddy can beat up your daddy | |
By cmalcolm
Jan 29, 2008
| So did she get a mentor? | |
By Alexandra
Jan 29, 2008
| Charles Dalgleish wrote: Girls are great when it comes to learning to use their body to their advantage once they understand that climbing isn't all arm strength. But I wont climb with them if they aren't willing to try something that I KNOW to be in their ability level.
Is it that common for women to be convinced they can't climb something???
It certainly was for me, but I thought I was just kind of being a pansy... | |
By Stefanie Van Wychen
From Westminster, CO
Jan 29, 2008
| Alexandra, you're certainly not a pansy for feeling that way! There are a lot of climbs that are probably within my leading limit that I haven't had the courage to lead yet. Some of my strongest leads have come when my fiance (a much stronger leader) has had to back down and I've had to step it up and take over - on climbs that I never conceived being able to lead. From my observations, for some people, men's and women's reaction to getting on a lead that they should be able to lead is different - I tend to be a lot more hesitant than my guy friends on getting on something, but the more I climb the more I trust in my own abilities...
On a side note: there was an interesting study posted in the paper a couple months ago on why there aren't more women in the computer sciences. They found that classes were geared more towards a man's learning style of just jumping in and trying things. Where as women tended to want more direction before tearing into a new computer program. I think I fit this category for climbing - my fiance taught himself to climb by trial and error, but I wanted more direction and read a lot and followed for several years before leading.......... | |
By Jon Ruland
From Tucson, AZ
Jan 29, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: Thank you, all. Now we have lots of material to work with. Every one of you who has made the concerted effort to focus on lecturing Tony and myself is now guilty of the very thing of which you accused us. You have proven that you are more interested in having a target, than you are in sticking to the topic. Silence and forbearance were always your options but you instead chose to strike. Tony and I did not Svengali you into that action. You did it all on your own. So stop being hypocrites, and PLEASE say something that contributes to the topic. And, for Christ's sake, stop your damn whining. Cheers BTW, cisco, stay in your own pay grade; sarcasm requires intellect and wit - both of which you clearly lack.
you must have this speech saved somewhere for easy copy and paste action. | |
By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 29, 2008
| Kencangisuxmonkeyballs,
I couldn't disagree more. Ken keeps people on their toes (sometimes good, sometimes bad) but it is lively, engaging, and another viewpoint.
On a serious note. Ken and Tony should tie into the same rope and let the rest of us watch as a charity event. I would pay money to watch you two climb together. Man would that be a show! You guys should consider it. Seriously. | |
By Tim Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Jan 29, 2008
| If only I could find the mentoring tips of drkodos. Man, was that a funny rant. It's been long since deleted from whence it was once posted. | |
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