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By thomas ellis
From abq
Jan 21, 2013
Mint jullop

11c,
Why so angry and defensive? And supposing between the lines.

Frank stone.......+1


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Jan 21, 2013
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

Joe may have had his head in the 5 gal. pail too long. Please forgive him. It may explain the trouble he is having with basic spelling, grammar and ability to understand why somebody would care about a crag being made to look like the inside of a derelict's trailer or how the chip and glue fest is way beyond what most of us sport climb developers think is acceptable. It doesn't take a rabid anti- reinforcement, comfortizing choss peeler to see this is way overboard.


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By Jeremy Riesberg
From Minneapolis, MN
Jan 22, 2013
Palisaid, SD.

It doesn't matter that I'll never travel to a crave that looks like trash now, it's the fact that these actions make the community look bad. It literally can be one guy who ruins things for everyone else.


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By Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Jan 22, 2013
A grey fox skull wedged in a crack 100' up on a FA I was working on - don't see that every day...

epic onsight-11c wrote:
Would a 5.10 crusher explain why they care so much about routes they cant climb again? If you cant even pull yourself onto the glue routes at the bat cave. Why would you waist your time to go there? It baffle's me why someone who cant climb there would waist there time bitching about it and even going out of there way to clean the place up.


epic troll boy calling c.roth a 5.10 crusher: epic fail.


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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 22, 2013
Stoked...

Slab - hey man... long time. Wow ya that's fu*ck... I was referring to the 5 gallons of bucket and the hold sculpting with glue with my comment about the Northeast. It honestly doesn't surprise me one bit though that that vandalism/chipping is happening at the Gunks. Actually, that's exactly where I'd expect it... slash their tires if you see them in the lots (edit: j/k).

I would suspect you know who's doing it... why don't u guys step in and bang some heads and report them to the preserve where applicable? Unfort seems like the private land owner who you confronted doesn't care in which case there's not much to do except call this asshole out publicly. A vandalism arrest by the preserve would probable send a signal to any younger folks but I would suspect the issue is an older person who might be hard to get proof. If you think hunting cameras would help I can get them on prodeals and would be glad to get a few for you guys if you wanted to purchase some. Aight well peace... and I got some hard and big projs for you too so if ur interested hit me up.

Peace,

Mo


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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Jan 22, 2013

Keep it classy admins.



CaptainMo wrote:
Slab - hey man... long time. Wow ya that's fu*ck... I was referring to the 5 gallons of bucket and the hold sculpting with glue with my comment about the Northeast. It honestly doesn't surprise me one bit though that that vandalism/chipping is happening at the Gunks. Actually, that's exactly where I'd expect it... slash their fucking tires if you see them in the lots. I would suspect you know who's doing it... why don't u guys step in and bang some heads and report them to the preserve where applicable? Unfort seems like the private land owner who you confronted doesn't care in which case there's not much to do except call this asshole out publicly. A vandalism arrest by the preserve would probable send a signal to any younger folks but I would suspect the issue is an older person who might be hard to get proof. If you think hunting cameras would help I can get them on prodeals and would be glad to get a few for you guys if you wanted to purchase some. Aight well peace... and I got some hard and big projs for you too so if ur interested hit me up. Peace, Mo





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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Jan 22, 2013
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

I'm thinking that was meant to be a private that somehow turned into a post.

That guy in the tough guy picture actually looks kind of scary. He looks like a psycho who strangles boulderers and keeps their bodies in the basement


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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Jan 22, 2013

kinda like this guy?


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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 22, 2013
Stoked...

David Sahalie wrote:
kinda like this guy?


just like that one... ;-)

P.S. David - I edit'd the class out for u... I'm not trying to be an 'internet' tough guy just hear/learn about problem (albeit with some sarcasm (tires)). But in all honesty, i would think people like slab know who's doing what up there and should be able to have some input or take action in some way, no?

Anyone care to name names?


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By slab
Jan 22, 2013

David Sahalie wrote:
kinda like this guy?

DAMN, that forearm vein is a FIREHOSE.


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By Williampenner
From The 505
Jan 22, 2013
Beaver Mountain

slab wrote:
DAMN, that forearm vein is a FIREHOSE.


Taping up for the workday, nice technique Slabdyno! The gorilla mask would actually reduce the fearsome look.

SWclimber, Tiny is back with Madrock now.

W


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By Senior Hernandez
Jan 22, 2013
on the trip

southwesternclimber wrote:
I hope the BLM does go in and shut the cave down. If you buy La Sportiva products you are buying the glue.



And this, once again, proves that climbers have always been climbers own worst enemies. Most of our access problems are not a result of a particular ethical choice. They are usually a result of multiple ethical beliefs, all based on dogmatism, which constantly fight for fascist supremacy.

Your last quote says all that needs to be said about the informed nature of the anti argument. Well put.


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Jan 22, 2013
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

So, Tonto, what would it take to persuade you that the treatment of the cave may have been a bad idea? I suspect that nothing will and you will simply block out anything that doesn't go along with what you want to do. It is similar with fanatics on the other side like k Nichols. By the way, I think there are plenty of people who are very experienced, and not narrow minded who think (and have expressed) that the place looks like a mess. If the situation is egregious enough, I don't think being from out of state negates their opinions.

There are times to be revolutionary and break the rules, but when a large number of people are saying you are wrong, you better be willing to double and triple check yourself .


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By slab
Jan 22, 2013

maybe tonto is a noob... you should be smart enough to know diarrheaing 50 gallons of glue onto a chossy roof and turning it into a dump is stupid and wrong. its kind of common sense. where are all the advanced elite climbers sympathizing with these ethics? climbing in the bat cave? LOL.


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By Tim McCabe
Jan 23, 2013

Being strong or skilled or both doesn't give someone the right to just do as they please on public land.

I know some mountain bikers who wish this wasn't the case. Just because someone has the balls to ride a big drop doesn't give them the right to head into the forest and start cutting trail, and building features.

Riders have been fined for building, and even just for riding on bootleg trails. One rider was banned, from an entire ranger district, for 6 months for unauthorized trail repairs.

Seems to me that this level of construction is the same as trail building. I may be a has been who'll never go to the Bat Cave, but I do know something about what it takes to get permission to do construction on public land.

If this level of modification is typical of new sport area's I can't imagine it will be long before land managers feel the need to step in and require climbers to do a full NEPA for new area's.


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By Healyje
Jan 23, 2013
girl40

Tim McCabe wrote:
Being strong or skilled or both doesn't give someone the right to just do as they please on public land.


Being strong or skilled doesn't mean they aren't dumb as a stump, either. Or completely out of touch with nature and so deeply into their own idiosyncratic private Idaho they lost all perspective. And you can tell at least the latter is the case here, if by no other means, than by the blinding self-absorption of the speaker hanger (and get a frigging nano and some sport buds, no one wants to hear your music).

In no climbing world is gluing on anything approaching this ten-gallon scale acceptable. And when the level of crag - let alone hold - comfortizing and personalization begins to resemble terraforming, even the most blind, delusional, or loyal climber should hopefully be able to recognize the situation long ago left the realm of 'ethics' and strayed hard into outright vandalism of a public resource.

This is exactly the sort of shit that gives climbing a bad rep with some land managers and, in this case, deservedly so.


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By Senior Hernandez
Jan 23, 2013
on the trip

HoseBeats wrote:
This post was originally a comment in Bat Cave Area I understand subtle reinforcement of fragile holds that are necessary for certain routes to be climbable. What I do not understand is the wholesale application of glue as if it is a route setting tool. I saw massive patches of glue that were not close to bolted lines, holds sculpted out of glue, glue covering features to make the line harder, and attempts to hide the glue via spray painting (which only made it look worse). Those who engaged in this abomination should be condemned and ostracized by the climbing community; this type of development has no place in the modern climbing world.



Wow, one month later, almost ten thousand views, and the first post is still the only one worth reading, so I thought it was worth reposting. The rest of the posters are mainly idiots who have never been there but continue to post about their assumptions; most of them being uninformed and flat out wrong.


There are several different conversations to be had here, and none of them are happening. Only one overarching theme: everything in the bat cave is bad, uhmk, if you don't agree with me your a homo. Really now, can't we all just get along?


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By Healyje
Jan 23, 2013
girl40

Tonto wrote:
...the assumption is constatly used as proof of ethical violations. If you actually knew why this "bolt" was there you would laugh your ass off, but you don't, so enjoy your asinine assumptions.


It's irrelevant 'why' a 'bolt' like that is there beyond making the case for how out-of-hand things got.

Tonto wrote:
...proving that emotions trump logic in these ethical debates. Why am I the one pointing this out?


Well, that could be because it doesn't have shit to do with ethics at this point. The pics and glue buckets speak for themselves to the fact the whole affair departed the realm of ethics long ago. If you're oblivious or blind to that fact then this is so far beyond a matter of ethics then you are part of the reason why climber behavior gets some areas closed permanently.

Tonto wrote:
This little debacle is in no way a proxy war for personal issues that have been raging on for years. I am so impressed with the posters knowledge of what they are posting about as well as their grace when doing so. When I start commenting on your home crag in an uniformed manner, please let me know.


Crikey, this scale of chipping, gluing, and terraforming on public land has zip all squat to do with anyone's 'issues', ethics debates within climbing, or esoteric matters which require more knowledge of the crag than the pics provide. Hey, wake the fuck up - it isn't a comparative 'local' matter - it's vandalism of a public resource plain and simple and is exactly the sort of bullshit that gets telegraphed around land managers who are now as connected as we are. Don't try to couch it as a 'local issue' or hide behind an 'ethics' smokescreen. Behavior like this jeopardizes way more than just this particular crag .


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By Williampenner
From The 505
Jan 23, 2013
Beaver Mountain

Tonto, ease up on that coffee buddy and take a deep breath.

What Hosebeats described--subtle reinforcement of [a very few] fragile holds--is probably fine with many of the posters on this thread, as are the terraces at the Bat Cave. They are a jagged mess of rebar waiting to impale someone but aren't so bad in their intent to reduce erosion and provide a decent landing. That said, the Tiny Posse has rarely reinforced, modified, chipped, filled in, or glued with subtlety. Two five-gallon buckets attest to that at the Bat Cave (and apparently three others were removed previously).

Various people have tried various ways to deal with this in the past and all have failed because a small number of folks continue to enable this kind of stuff. If you actually think any of this is over the top what would you do? Your solution seems to be screaming at beginners or those from out of state for lack of standing.

I know Hosebeats very well and you are no Hosebeats, instead you just seem like a bully.

Enjoy the crystal blue persuasion,

W


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Jan 23, 2013
modern man

holy shit I feel like everyone on this thread owes me some beer for reading this crap.

RC.com, we have arrived!

one observation here- its a choss pile in a shitty location, the land all around it torn up and trashed by miners, not a "nature" trail for miles, most of the posters have never been there and this is the hottest thread going... RC.com BABY!!!


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By David Sahalie
From on the road again
Jan 23, 2013

Healyje wrote:
Crikey, this scale of chipping, gluing, and terraforming on public land has zip all squat to do with anyone's 'issues', ethics debates within climbing, or esoteric matters which require more knowledge of the crag than the pics provide. Hey, wake the fuck up - it isn't a comparative 'local' matter - it's vandalism of a public resource plain and simple and is exactly the sort of bullshit that gets telegraphed around land managers who are now as connected as we are. Don't try to couch it as a 'local issue' or hide behind an 'ethics' smokescreen. Behavior like this jeopardizes way more than just this particular crag .



Read the whole thread. The level of reinforcement you describe is not unprecedented. For example, Spay a Thon in Rifle has more glue than here, and is the most popular 13c there. Rifle promotes and makes money off of climbing. To say it goes against your personal views is your prerogative, but it isn't against the cultural norm of hard sport climbing.


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By Senior Hernandez
Jan 23, 2013
on the trip

TRmasta wrote:
holy shit I feel like everyone on this thread owes me some beer for reading this crap. RC.com, we have arrived! one observation here- its a choss pile in a shitty location, the land all around it torn up and trashed by miners, not a "nature" trail for miles, most of the posters have never been there and this is the hottest thread going... RC.com BABY!!!



The most astute comment yet. But it's fun right?


Healyje wrote:
Crikey, this scale of chipping, gluing, and terraforming on public land has zip all squat to do with anyone's 'issues', ethics debates within climbing, or esoteric matters which require more knowledge of the crag than the pics provide. Hey, wake the fuck up - it isn't a comparative 'local' matter - it's vandalism of a public resource plain and simple and is exactly the sort of bullshit that gets telegraphed around land managers who are now as connected as we are. Don't try to couch it as a 'local issue' or hide behind an 'ethics' smokescreen. Behavior like this jeopardizes way more than just this particular crag .



Wow, nice example of what I was talking about and why this discussion is going so well. Care to share any more hate with the crowd? With that kind of venom I really feel that we are headed somewhere. It's all loves little man.


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By Healyje
Jan 23, 2013
girl40

Tonto wrote:
Care to share any more hate with the crowd?


I don't know, care to share anymore of the blind delusions that gets crags closed permanently?

P.S. And With regard to Rifle, that's exactly the problem when folks display poor judgment at a crag (on routes like Sprayathon and Cryptic Egyption and especially when done by name climbers) - that bad judgment then spreads to other crags, each time citing the previous example as justification and rationale for yet another occasion for the very same bad judgment call - it's like a disease.


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By Jeremy Aslaksen
From Albuquerque, NM
Jan 23, 2013

Hey "David" and "Tonto" and anyone "Else",

Why don't you come meet me for a beer in ABQ and let's discuss this?

If they won't let you in we can meet at Jamba Juice.

PM me and let's hook up.

Jeremy Aslaksen
ABQ, NM


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By Senior Hernandez
Jan 24, 2013
on the trip

Jeremy Aslaksen wrote:
Hey "David" and "Tonto" and anyone "Else", Why don't you come meet me for a beer in ABQ and let's discuss this? If they won't let you in we can meet at Jamba Juice. PM me and let's hook up. Jeremy Aslaksen ABQ, NM



Sure Jeremy, I love spending time with open minded homophobes like yourself who hurl sexual insults at people they disagree with.


Healyje wrote:
Well, that could be because it doesn't have shit to do with ethics at this point. .



Nope, just personal pissing matches. Want to measure?

Did you ever wonder why this conversation is coming out years after the fact instead of when it would have actually accomplished something? Hmmmmm. Interesting.


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