Bailing on bolt

Hey folks.
I had the following scenario and wanted to get some expert opinions. I spoke to my rope access technician friend about it and agree with my friend but also wanted to post to see what other people thought.

A climber is clipped into the 4th bolt on a slightly overhanging line. The climber decided to bail because of physical tiredness and the 4th bolt (the last bolt they are clipped into) seemed sketchy in terms of rock quality. Climber has on a safe tech harness (single belay loop) and clips the PAS to the 4th bolt. The previous bolt (3rd bolt) is close enough that the climber uses a draw to clip a gear loop to the 3rd bolt. The reason the climber did this is because the bail biner the climber wanted to use was not on the climbers harness. The climber asked me to take her off belay to go get it. If the 4th bolt gave, are there any issues with the gear loop (which was told to me to be strength rated)?

Also once the climber received the bail biner, the climber wanted to rap off the single bail biner instead of lowering off. The gate is facing away from the rock and the line is slightly overhanging. I think if the bolt is that sketchy then she should have been lowered off instead of rapping off. Her reasoning is that it is safer to rap because vibrations when lowering off the biner against rock can potentially cause the gate to open or make the rock more unstable. I disagree. Thoughts?

Any expert opinion is greatly appreciated because I think learning and understanding is key to making us better and safer climbers.
Thanks.

If the climber was worried about the condition of the 4th bolt, they definitely should not have clipped into the 3rd with the quickdraw. Doing this puts the climber at risk of taking close to a factor 2 fall on a static material if the 4th bolt were to fail. They probably wouldn't die, but from what I hear this kind of fall hurts like hell. I also think you are right about lowering vs rapping. The difference between the two in terms of stress on the bolt is pretty minor. As far as using the gear loop on a safe tech harness, Metolious claims they are strength rated so I wouldn't worry about the integrity of the gear loop, but by using the gear loop the climber introduced the possibility that if they 4th bolt were to fail, they would take a really awkward fall due to the attachment point on the side of the harness rather than the front.

Sleyer wrote:Hey folks. I had the following scenario and wanted to get some expert opinions. I spoke to my rope access technician friend about it and agree with my friend but also wanted to post to see what other people thought. A climber is clipped into the 4th bolt on a slightly overhanging line. The climber decided to bail because of physical tiredness and the 4th bolt (the last bolt they are clipped into) seemed sketchy in terms of rock quality. Climber has on a safe tech harness (single belay loop) and clips the PAS to the 4th bolt. The previous bolt (3rd bolt) is close enough that the climber uses a draw to clip a gear loop to the 3rd bolt. The reason the climber did this is because the bail biner the climber wanted to use was not on the climbers harness. The climber asked me to take her off belay to go get it. If the 4th bolt gave, are there any issues with the gear loop (which was told to me to be strength rated)? Also once the climber received the bail biner, the climber wanted to rap off the single bail biner instead of lowering off. The gate is facing away from the rock and the line is slightly overhanging. I think if the bolt is that sketchy then she should have been lowered off instead of rapping off. Her reasoning is that it is safer to rap because vibrations when lowering off the biner against rock can potentially cause the gate to open or make the rock more unstable. I disagree. Thoughts? Any expert opinion is greatly appreciated because I think learning and understanding is key to making us better and safer climbers. Thanks.

Rapping puts less force on the anchor. It's equal to the weight of the climber. While lowering is the sum of the climber and the belayer minus the friction of the anchor.

If the 3rd bolt was within reach and the 4th bolt was crap, why not leave 2 bail biners?

Sleyer wrote: The reason the climber did this is because the bail biner the climber wanted to use was not on the climbers harness.

Here is a problem. If you are bailing... does it matter? Think of it as a cost of failure to reach your objective. Does she not value her life over maybe $20 at the most?

Sleyer wrote:should have been lowered off instead of rapping off.

Probably a better idea. Less for you and your friend to have to deal with, and not cause her to put herself into a position that could be more hazardous.

Correct about the rappel vs. a lower on friction and possible issues with vibration. Although, I've seen people rappel and be very bouncy/jerky which is not good on a suspect bolt.

The situation you describe sounds dangerous. Partner asks to be taken off belay while at a scetchy bolt. Clips a part of the harness not designed for the purpose being used (even though rated). If the bolt goes how will your partner's body be oriented when the gear loop catches? Is she in a position that will be easy to recover from? If the gear loop does not catch and she is not on belay... then what?

It does not sound as though you guys made things easy on yourselves.

I think any route is inherently dangerous and unpredictable. If you're gonna make YOUR choice to climb the thing, be prepared to accept some risk. Your judgement is totally up to you. I love the thrill of the unknown. I've lowered off of a cam that I stuck in a flake that gave off a hollow sound on a line that wasn't established in the guide. Needed more large cams because I misjudged the size of the slot from the ground. But, the cam held, no rock broke. Resumed my climb up some terrible choss. Rapped off a tree that I hoped wouldn't uproot with a double strand munter hitch because I forgot an ATC. I loved myself more for gathering the guts it took to hand jam up an overhanging crack with trad gear, being NOT the strongest, most confident trad climber, being able to improvise through my little adventure and live on with more experience and a new story. In your case--if the route is overhanging, lower off your bail 'biner. If it's vertical, rappel off your bail 'biner to be decent to your belayer. Embrace the thrill, within reason.

Gear loops aren't known to be weight-bearing. We can apply multiple attachments to the belay loop.

I vote the two bail biners on the third and fourth bolt.

But today in 2015 we now have other options, like repurposed Amazon Prime drones with quickdraw removing claws. This will be the new way to bail.

And as always, like Jean Paul Sartre said, you can just untie and throw yourself off the cliff. Radical freedom!!!!

For her own reasons the climber didn't want to leave her draws on the wall. So after fetching the bail biner and getting it up to her she rapped off with just the bail biner on yhe 4th bolt. No draws left behind.

Rocknice2 - are you saying that rappin off the sketchy 4th bolt would have been better due to less force on the bolt?

Bigfeet - I agree with you. I questioned her while she was on the wall but ultimately did as she requested because I didn't want to argue with her. But when she got down I was seething mad an could hardly speak. And I phrased it exactly as you did - she was willing to risk her life for a $20 biner. I would have bought her another one. I didn't even mention on the post she had a locking biner on her but she didn't want to use that one because she wanted the bail biner. I feel myself hopping mad just typing this.

Lower w/ Prusik

Edit to add:
David appears to have been on the same train of thought. Credit for being quick on the draw.

Oh thanks Dave! That's quite useful! And something to keep in mind. Unfortunately she didn't have a prusik on her.

Sleyer wrote:I questioned her while she was on the wall but ultimately did as she requested because I didn't want to argue with her. But when she got down I was seething mad an could hardly speak. ...I feel myself hopping mad just typing this.

Time to drop the partner. Don't put yourself in these situations with people that don't think through the consequences of their actions or it will compromise your own safety at some point. Otherwise listen to all the good advise posted - always carry a Prussik cord and be ready to leave a few bail biners at anytime and makes sure your partners are like minded. Climb safe!

So why didn't she just downclimb, fall to bolt #3, it is in reach right?

If #3 was in reach maybe #2 was also in reach from #3.

Than to #2

see where Im going?

out west, we call it down down falling....

and no need to Get Mad.

Yes, rapping puts less force on the top anchor than lowering does.

The issue isn't whether she lowered or rappelled but that she did it on a sketchy anchor.

Agreed, Guy. No need to be mad but it's just upsetting because the climber is my friend that I care about. I don't want her to get hurt. So I am taking all of this in because for future reference I learn and can retain all of this the next time I am faced with a similar situation.

Rocknice2 - you're right. It's the sketchiness of the bolt that is the issue. I am of the opinion that if you are that sketched out with the bolt then you better get off of it as quickly and safely as possible. Lowering without the bail biner would have been, in my opinion, the faster way instead of all that we did in between.

I don't think in this situation there is a right answer but I also know I can be quite stubborn and so reading all the different opinions certainly opens up my mind. I know it will also make me a safer climber too.

Thanks everyone. Greatly appreciate all the quick and thoughtful responses. Stay safe out there!

Where's Aleks to tell you to man up?
Lower her, tell her to be your belay _____ , then lead that climb like a boss, clean her gear and hand it back with a wink, and a "dinners(beers) on you?"

Newish Climber here.

Im a bit confused about the Petzl instructions for lowering using a prussik. In the first picture, it looks like climber may have fallen in the overhung section and is in dead air. If this is the case, isn't there no other choice but to Lower?

Next, even if he did manage to get back on the wall, instructions have him threading the rope through the quick link which would involve anchoring. I think these instructions seem to indicate that top bolt is solid, but that wasn't the question here. What if the top bolt is sketchy? Is it still a good idea (or at least a better idea) to anchor to it, quicklink, and lower? Is using just a bailer better with a prussik?

Thanks.

"Just substitute bail biners instead of the quicklink so that there's no anchoring needed."

I suspect they intend to pass a section of the rope through the 'gate' of the quick link and then screw it shut - no separate anchoring needed.

Thanks Bill/Dave, when I read "thread through quick link' I was thinking more rap ring style.

What about if the climber is in dead air and can't make it back to the wall let alone back up to the highest clipped bolt?

Thanks Dave. I'm familiar with Boinking, but again, not to be a pest, but I don't think I'd like to be Boinking on a bolt I saw as sketchy as noted in the original question.

There may not be a good answer here, but I'm wondering about finding yourself in dead air hanging from a shitty bolt, unable to get to the wall. It see,s the only option is a slow and steady lower.

You can always carry a prusik to climb the rope with until you can get on the wall, or more preferable, lower.

I'd down-whip/down-aid to lower bolt if that is more reliable.

Clipping a gear loop direct to a lower bolt, as said earlier, probably isn't the best idea - loading a piece of static webbing off a gear loop wouldn't feel that great, it'd be far more comfortable for her to just take the fall on a dynamic rope, then lower/rap off bolt 3.

Or just keep whipping till she is at the ground - and work on adding some skills like using prusiks and downclimbing to her quiver.

JRZane wrote:There may not be a good answer here, but I'm wondering about finding yourself in dead air hanging from a shitty bolt, unable to get to the wall. It see,s the only option is a slow and steady lower.

Once in a while, we paint ourselves in to a corner - shame on us, eh? Probably best in the first place to have not climbed past the shitty bolt into difficult terrain.

Prusiking up on a belayed rope to get to a manky bolt? I agree with BF - I'd prefer to be gently lowered.

Once down, it can still be an adventurous and rewarding day: Is there a protectable route nearby from which I could rap/pendi over to clean the first route? Can I scramble up the back side to the top, set an anchor, and rap down to clean? Etc..