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Avalon- Poached Routes
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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Nov 14, 2012
tanuki
So Dan, what do you think about the Gunks?

mountainproject.com/v/gunks-mu...

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By Dan Cohen
Nov 14, 2012
I don't frequent Mountain Project often, as the discourse tends to be rather uncivil. I haven't followed the Gunks thread so I can't comment on it.

What are your opinions on this thread?

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Nov 14, 2012
tanuki
Avalon was where Excalibur was forged. Beyond that, I have no opinion. It seems to me the issue was resolved long before you started posting.

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By Dan Cohen
Nov 14, 2012
NC Rock Climber wrote:
Avalon was where Excalibur was forged. Beyond that, I have no opinion. It seems to me the issue was resolved long before you started posting.


I can see how it appears that the issue was resolved based on Steven's post. I spoke to Steve (the gentleman who had his routes poached) this weekend in person, and it was quite apparent that there was no resolution. I think his response was an effort to avoid conflict instead of achieve resolution. Geir and Jim's posturing, faulty logic and fake apologies are quite evident that they remain unapologetic.

It is clear that Jim and Geir have no qualms about poaching routes. I certainly understand Steve's desire to avoid conflict, but this sort of episode is bound to repeat if they are not held accountable for their actions.

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By Steve Pulver
From Williston, ND
Nov 14, 2012
can't this thread die already.

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Nov 14, 2012
tanuki
Considering how this thread has deteriorated, I think that this video is both appropriate and on-topic:


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Nov 14, 2012
modern man
Tucson- a small enough city where most climbers know of each other but not big enough for people to realize their local dramas are re-darn-diculous to just about everyone out there.

I personally would NEVER bolt a route someone had cleaned and put anchors on without calling/face to face FIRST. no excuse for that anywhere.

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By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Nov 14, 2012
Me and my Fetish I guess.. ;)
NC Rock Climber wrote:
Considering how this thread has deteriorated, I think that this video is both appropriate and on-topic:

I seriously owe you a beer for that.. I came here to basically feel better about my entire day not expecting that at all. I really needed to laugh like that. Thanks NCRC...

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By Ian Stewart
Nov 14, 2012
Dan Cohen wrote:
It is clear that Jim and Geir have no qualms about poaching routes. I certainly understand Steve's desire to avoid conflict, but this sort of episode is bound to repeat if they are not held accountable for their actions.


If they truly don't give a shit like you say, then they're going to continue doing it regardless of what you or anybody here (or even in person) says anyways. The reality is that they have just as much legal right to place a bolt and climb a route as anybody else; tact and ethics are not enforced by any laws. Continuing to rag on them is just as possible to make the situation worse as it is to make it better (though I doubt it will do either). You're wasting your time.

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Nov 14, 2012
tanuki
Hey Daryl. I am glad you liked it. It always makes me laugh too. I'll look forward to introducing myself to you at the crag and taking you up on that beer!

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Nov 14, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Steven W. Johnson wrote:
Thanks for the discussion. My main purpose for posting was to findout who finished the routes so that I could ask that in the future as a courtesy to contact or other FAist in other areas. I am not into route establishment for the glory but the adventure, creativity and the benefit of the climing community. Avalon is a community crag with fourth-fifths of the monetary expense coming from the Tucson climbing community; Thanks Tucson. I establish easy to moderate routes with a few harder here and there; no glory in that. I finished the last project at Avalon this Sunday and climbed both of the routes that were the topic of this discussion. They are good routes and good additions to Avalon; and, Mt. lemmon. The right one is a hell of a lot harder than I had hoped it would be; solid lead and on very solid rock. Mentioned in the threads above were comments/questions about people being to Avalon previously and putting up three routes. This is true, estimated that they are thirty years old. I did research the history of the rock and those routes. I was not and have not been able to get information as of yet to who put them up. My thanks to Geir for replacing the two bolts on one route; three more bolts to go between two routes. Also, thanks Geir for your your post.

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By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Nov 15, 2012
Me and my Fetish I guess.. ;)
NC Rock Climber wrote:
Hey Daryl. I am glad you liked it. It always makes me laugh too. I'll look forward to introducing myself to you at the crag and taking you up on that beer!

I called my daughter [7yrs old] into the room and we must have watched it about 10 times. I've never heard her laugh like that... definitely owe you a cold one. I'll be up in Phoenix this weekend and was thinking about throwing the gear in the car. You going to be doing anything near Camelback?

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Nov 15, 2012
tanuki
It is really cool to hear about your and your daughter. Thanks for sharing that! My son is only 4 months old, so it will be a little while until he gets fart jokes. I am looking forward to sharing that kind of a laugh with him!

Meeting a Camelback would be great, but I am either going to the Homestead or Jacks. My vote was for Jacks, but my two partners have yet to vote so the final destination is still up in the air. We will have to do that beer another time. I hope you have a great weekend!

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By David Arthur Sampson
Nov 15, 2012
Slap/Tickle
Dan Cohen wrote:
What agenda of mine do you see beyond calling out route-poaching?

Dan, I have no issue with you. I do not even know you except for your consistent badgering of Geir.

Yes, Geir is a good friend. I may on occasion disagree with some of his decisions, but I support him. Jim is also a friend. My reference to an "agenda" was simply to point out that whenever you confront him on-line your position is always the same; hostile and accusatory.

I retract my statement that your comments were inflammatory. I stand corrected.

Although I too hope this thread dies I wanted to correct my position.

For the record, I too think that if a bolted anchor (on a sport route) has been set then reasonable attempts should be made to contact the person who started the work if another party wishes to finish the line.

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By Scott M. McNamara
From Tucson, Arizona
Nov 15, 2012
One Way Sunset

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By Jon Ruland
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 15, 2012
sending Hard Day at the Orifice
isn't MP lovely, steve? you post a reasonable question in a respectful manner and describe how you were affected by someone's discourtesy toward your many hours of work, and then every douchebag on MP jumps out of the woodworks and tells you the rock isn't yours, you're making a big deal out of nothing, etc., etc.

this site has been very poorly moderated over the past 3 years and this is what we get. i used to have reasonable discussions here about fairly important issues, but there is simply no point any more. at least the route database is decent.

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Nov 15, 2012
Ooops...
Pueblo chico, infierno grande...

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By Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Nov 15, 2012
A grey fox skull wedged in a crack 100' up on a FA I was working on - don't see that every day...
Jon Ruland wrote:
isn't MP lovely, steve? you post a reasonable question in a respectful manner and describe how you were affected by someone's discourtesy toward your many hours of work, and then every douchebag on MP jumps out of the woodworks and tells you the rock isn't yours, you're making a big deal out of nothing, etc., etc. this site has been very poorly moderated over the past 3 years and this is what we get. i used to have reasonable discussions here about fairly important issues, but there is simply no point any more. at least the route database is decent.


Guess you just decided not to read all the posts where people agreed it was a dick move?

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By Jimbo
Nov 15, 2012
Jeepers Dan how I'm I going to sleep at night knowing you are unwilling to give me a pass. My only purpose in life is gain your respect and for you to be my friend. Knowing that you are out there angry with me is more than I can bare.

Oh the humanity!!!

My offer still stands, any one that wants to come out to an area I'm developing and do routes is more than welcome anytime.

Dan the guy you hang out with would never make this offer, ever! Which is why you are sooooo outraged buy this whole affair. Put the bong away, examine your motivations and get a life.

EFR would be proud of that fart.

Jon feel free to start your on website if you don't like how this one is run.

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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Nov 15, 2012
Ooops...
What would Clutchy do???



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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 15, 2012
Toofast
Dan Cohen wrote:
but this sort of episode is bound to repeat if they are not held accountable for their actions.


So are chiseling, retrobolting routes without consent from the FA, and mass-manufacturing holds using glue. Be careful what you hope for! :)

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By Jimbo
Nov 16, 2012
Snap!!!

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 16, 2012
Toofast
^^^^^^ hahahahahahahaha!!! Now that is funny! I think I am going to dye my hair black and get a bowl cut.

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By Dan Cohen
Nov 16, 2012
Ian Stewart wrote:
If they truly don't give a shit like you say, then they're going to continue doing it regardless of what you or anybody here (or even in person) says anyways. The reality is that they have just as much legal right to place a bolt and climb a route as anybody else; tact and ethics are not enforced by any laws. Continuing to rag on them is just as possible to make the situation worse as it is to make it better (though I doubt it will do either). You're wasting your time.


I disagree that they are indifferent to what people say on this forum or otherwise. I doubt that if their friends (a few of whom have posted that they disagree with route poaching on this thread) held them accountable, they would not listen. I think it is the duty of those close to us to call us out when we are acting unethically. These people have overlooked Geir and Jim's actions, otherwise this whole thread would not have occurred or would have resulted in Jim and Geir giving a simple and honest apology to Steve. Jim and Geir use paper-thin logic, childish name-calling, and are clearly incapable or unwilling to engage in any sort of adult conversation.

As we are seeing, if a number of people express their opinions in a moderate voice, Jim and Geir's weak logic, hostility, and disappearing acts only serve to make them look like bullies. If they were contrite for their poaching, and I continued to single them out, then that would qualify as badgering. Being that they display the maturity level of a couple of 13 year old girls, their actions should continue to be scrutinized.

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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Nov 16, 2012
Toofast
Hahahahahahahaha!!! Scrutinize away Dan!

While you are at it, please deliver a lecture to us regarding routes poached by the person you speak for. Doctor of Thinkology comes to mind ... it is both poached and manufactured. Unless you are a hypocrite and a tool, lead us in another four pages of discussion on this topic. Additionally, let us see Scott publically own up for his actions as Jim and I have. Afterward you can blabber about how insincere he is and we will just eat it all up. Save us Dan the Accountant!

I was honest about my mistake and made amends with those I am accountable to before Dan even started flaming here, so I consider this matter closed.

I can't wait for my upcoming trips to the Stronghold. There are so many beautiful things to photograph and discuss!

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