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Avalon- Poached Routes
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By frankstoneline
Oct 24, 2012

1Eric Rhicard wrote:
A few more questions and then I am done with questions, for now. What if said poacher replaced old bolts on one of the old routes at Avalon. What if Avalon isn't Avalon at all because whoever it was that did at least 3 routes before Steve got there named it. Should Steve have talked to those folks before he started drilling? Maybe the folks that did the original 3 routes wanted to leave some stone for FA teams in the future and now Steve has come along and claimed the wall. There is a lot of gray in this matter. (gray matter) did anyone get that?


I'm not from Arizona, so I can't claim to be an authoritative figure on the issue of ethics in the southwest, however, there is a drastic difference between putting a couple routes up and then not continuing development (it sounds like the old hardware is quite old) and showing up at a wall, seeing a cleaned section of wall with anchors and then finishing 'er off.


on a completely tangential note:
where is this overhanging sandstone pockets spot 300 miles from spokane? we talkin' 300 miles east or west...?


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By chosspector
From San Juans, CO
Oct 25, 2012

I'd be psyched if someone bolted a route I'd cleaned and marked bolt locations on, especially if they used good bolts. Less hard work and money spent! Get over it! You don't own the rock after all. Why do you really care that the routes got bolted without you doing the dirty work? Were those going to be crucial ego-boosting routes for your portfolio? Just go climb them and have fun!


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By jbak
Oct 25, 2012
A steep climb too.

chosspector wrote:
I'd be psyched if someone bolted a route I'd cleaned and marked bolt locations on, especially if they used good bolts. Less hard work and money spent! Get over it! You don't own the rock after all. Why do you really care that the routes got bolted without you doing the dirty work? Were those going to be crucial ego-boosting routes for your portfolio? Just go climb them and have fun!


What you said is not quite true though. Figuring out where new lines will go is an art. It's not necessarily obvious. So while another FAist may save you some bolts, did he do the best line ? Did he put the bolts in the best places ? Did he ruin a route that would have been good if I had finished it ? Because once a route is established, God knows it can be big trouble if you cross it/do a variation/move a bolt. These are hardly earth-shattering questions, but it's worth acknowledging.

@PD... you'd be amazed at how much some folks want their adventure tamed these days !


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By mountainlion
Oct 25, 2012

Sorry for your route Steve.

Dave as for having 2 years on your project let me tell you about "pigpen" aka "bachar craker of the desert" aka "busdriver" by some locals. Mari Ginger and Maria Cranor noticed the crack, dug out the cave (fairly big cave to boot), Dave Evans removed a loose rock inside
the cave (where the kneebar rest is). Along comes up Mike Paul while everybody is resting (Mike is their bro BTW) Mike asks to give it a go
nobody gave it a second thought and he sends it onsight. Nobody is to hurt about it. Even now that they call it is aka "bachar cracker of the desert" Mike says Bachar was a bro and isn't hurt in the slightest. This is all in the new vogel or miramontes guidebook. paraphasing from memory.

Get over it


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By Charles Vernon
From Tucson, AZ
Oct 25, 2012

Paul Davidson wrote:
rap station to rap rock ? I remember a trivial 3rd class down through those boulders. Am I just forgetting ?


I third-classed it before the anchor was in and while I wouldn't call it trivial, it wasn't too bad. There's some moves, but not much exposure. A lot of newer climbers or perhaps inexperienced followers seek out Rap Rock for an early multi-pitch experience, and maybe the thought was that some would balk at the downclimb. Of course, anyone who is nervous can always do the trail/braided erosion gully on the east side (which doesn't require any downclimbing) so the anchor certainly isn't necessary. The west descent is much nicer, though.


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Oct 25, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

M Sprague wrote:
Climb the routes and put them down as yours. The rest of the community should disregard ascents when stolen in that manner. You put the work in to finding, cleaning them and placing the anchors and were actively working on them. Unless you had a reputation of doing a bad job and somebody preemptively bolted, stealing like that is BS.


+1 more


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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Oct 25, 2012
Toofast

Hey Steve,

Sorry for the late reply as I am on my honeymoon in Moab. Just saw this thread and I have not read through all of it yet, I only read your initial post and then skimmed a bit.

I helped put up these two routes. I did not see your topo indicating the routes had been worked, any tick/bolt marks, evidence of cleaning, nor did I mean any disrespect. I saw your anchor, and (incorrectly) thought that since you had not been there in a while you decided not to do them. I did see a route with some bolt hangers removed that was obviously a project, so I stayed off it.

I am glad my friend contacted you to work this out and am happy to go along with whatever you guys figured out. What happens to the routes, the bolts, the naming, etc really does not matter to me. I will touch base with you when I get back.

Best wishes,
Geir

PS- By the way, I also replaced the ancient hardware on one of the original routes there.


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Oct 25, 2012
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

^ As so often, a misunderstanding. Something to remember before we make assumptions and create bad blood. It is good to see it clearing.


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By David Stephens
From Spokane WA.
Oct 25, 2012
Sport Climber

David Stephens wrote:
My money was on you EFR. ;-) On my last trip, I found my route of 2 years(I know...I know 2 years!) all ticked up and the red tag was missing. I don't know how you feel about that; I'm just glad they did not leave the red tag on the anchors!! I'm still just one move away from that send and I will name it A Red Tagged Whore.


Colin Kenneth wrote:
What is the statute of limitations on closed projects? If I came back to a crag several times over a year, and a route was continually "Closed," for no better reason than for the sake of it...I'd probably give climbing it a thought. That being said, I wouldn't immediately jump on something the first time I saw it, if it was a project. Really though, there comes a time when you should share your toys with others, and I think it falls well within two years.



jbak wrote:
That would be a tough one ! It's definitely easier to give away (or get over the poach of) a line that is not that good to begin with. The test of FA enlightenment is to give away a great line.



mountainlion wrote:
Get over it


2 years is a very long time and in my hometown it would not have lasted two weeks. I have given away the onsite FA on more than just one route, but once in awhile even a blind pig would like to eat his acorn.

back on track: I've that found routes that have been skipped over the years by other stronger climbers to be not worth the bolts most of the time. I've done a few no star routes and you'll be glad when you turn other climbers away from them. I have also left routes abandoned/cleaned that are now routes, some of them are very good, some not so good. If you did your job cleaning it and they did there's bolting it, I'd climb it and just hope like hell it's a piece of shit!

...See ya bolting the leftovers at the Homestead!


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By JoeS
Oct 25, 2012

Allow me to reluctantly weigh in here. It seems that maybe we’re all missing an important point. First, these situations are complex and there is no absolute set of ethics that govern this silly pursuit of ours. Secondly, I am at a loss to accurately interpret my own complex motives for putting up routes, let alone those of others, and understanding our precise motivation for doing what we do is unimportant. What I really think is important here, and apparently wasn’t done, is the issue of communicating with each other. If the people who want to bolt a new line would at least communicate their wishes with the active parties in the area, most of the climbers I know would be easily able to work out a solution that would satisfy all concerned. Anyhow, these are my thoughts for what little they are worth.


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By Brigette
From Vancouver, WA
Oct 25, 2012
At the anchors.

JoeS wrote:
Allow me to reluctantly weigh in here. It seems that maybe we’re all missing an important point. First, these situations are complex and there is no absolute set of ethics that govern this silly pursuit of ours. Secondly, I am at a loss to accurately interpret my own complex motives for putting up routes, let alone those of others, and understanding our precise motivation for doing what we do is unimportant. What I really think is important here, and apparently wasn’t done, is the issue of communicating with each other. If the people who want to bolt a new line would at least communicate their wishes with the active parties in the area, most of the climbers I know would be easily able to work out a solution that would satisfy all concerned. Anyhow, these are my thoughts for what little they are worth.


Well said.


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 25, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

JMo wrote:
Which etower route was it, Eric if you don't mind sharing?


Goliath. I think it is one of the most stunning lines in the SW. I love aretes and decided to climb it the first day I saw it.


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 25, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

frankstoneline wrote:
I'm not from Arizona, so I can't claim to be an authoritative figure on the issue of ethics in the southwest, however, there is a drastic difference between putting a couple routes up and then not continuing development (it sounds like the old hardware is quite old) and showing up at a wall, seeing a cleaned section of wall with anchors and then finishing 'er off.


The guys that did these routes did not show up and see a cleaned section of wall and in fact did a fair amount of brushing on them according to the the one who did the brushing.

"there is a drastic difference between putting a couple routes up and then not continuing development..."

I just think it is interesting that you and possibly others think Steve has a right to a crag and all the route possibilities when he was not even the first to discovered it.

Mine mine mine. How about ours ours ours.

I told Steve in a text he was welcome to join us at a new crag we are developing and if he wants he can lead the new one I cleaned and bolted. There are 6-10 new routes to do at this spot and they will be 5.8-5.11 and some are 100 feet long.

Hell anyone who wants to cover their share of the hardware costs is welcome to join us.

By the way have any of you above average geniuses figured out who besides Geir was involved? You can just respond with a yes.


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By JMo
From Flagstaff, AZ
Oct 25, 2012
mayflower

1Eric Rhicard wrote:
Goliath. I think it is one of the most stunning lines in the SW. I love aretes and decided to climb it the first day I saw it.


+1, makes me happy to just think about, tho probably not for me in this lifetime


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By frankstoneline
Oct 26, 2012

1Eric Rhicard wrote:
...I just think it is interesting that you and possibly others think Steve has a right to a crag and all the route possibilities when he was not even the first to discovered it. Mine mine mine...


I'm not saying he has the right to all of the development, but as I understand it he had put anchors in on the line. If anchors are in it seems courteous to at least find out whose they are before you finish the rig. Same thing with long term red tags. It is courteous to ask the developer before getting on the line. I'm glad to hear you've invited Steve along to play nice, however the discussion wasn't regarding whether or not the people involved in the issue were good or bad people fundamentally, but about the questionable ethics of bolting onto anchors someone else put in.


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 26, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

I agree with you about seeing and using a set of anchors that are already there. I believe they were not sure they were going to be used as we have left more than a few anchors behind thinking we would get back there and retrieve them at some point.

They have communicated and it appears no ones tires will be slashed. Both parties are great people and contribute a lot of new routes to the area. Don't guess this will have any long term negative affect.

I have enjoyed the discussion and finding more to the story than I first thought.

IF YOU FIND A CRAG THAT I HAVE DEVELOPED OR STARTED TO DEVELOP FEEL FREE TO CLIMB WHAT YOU LIKE. JUST LET ME KNOW SO I CAN GET IT IN THE NEXT GUIDEBOOK.


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By jefe
Oct 27, 2012

Like


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By Steven W. Johnson
From Tucson, Arizona
Oct 29, 2012

Thanks for the discussion. My main purpose for posting was to findout who finished the routes so that I could ask that in the future as a courtesy to contact or other FAist in other areas. I am not into route establishment for the glory but the adventure, creativity and the benefit of the climing community. Avalon is a community crag with fourth-fifths of the monetary expense coming from the Tucson climbing community; Thanks Tucson. I establish easy to moderate routes with a few harder here and there; no glory in that. I finished the last project at Avalon this Sunday and climbed both of the routes that were the topic of this discussion. They are good routes and good additions to Avalon; and, Mt. lemmon. The right one is a hell of a lot harder than I had hoped it would be; solid lead and on very solid rock. Mentioned in the threads above were comments/questions about people being to Avalon previously and putting up three routes. This is true, estimated that they are thirty years old. I did research the history of the rock and those routes. I was not and have not been able to get information as of yet to who put them up. My thanks to Geir for replacing the two bolts on one route; three more bolts to go between two routes. Also, thanks Geir for your your post.


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 29, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

Thanks, Steve. Let me know if you want to get to the Boyscout Wall this weekend.

Eric


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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Oct 30, 2012
Toofast

Hey Steve, I am back in town. PM me your number and I'll give you a call this week.

After some thought on this, my personal feeling is that if a project is equipped, red tagged, and being actively worked, then other climbers are obligated at ask the FA before taking runs on it. Otherwise things get a little muddy, and contacting the other party becomes a courtesy rather than an obligation. As a few have pointed out here, a little communication could have avoided some hard feelings.


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By jbak
Oct 30, 2012
A steep climb too.

Well...okay..., but what does "actively worked" mean ?

For example: what if the FAist intends to work it once it's back "in season", but is not currently working it because it's too hot/cold/whatever ?

I'd say... ask first. If they say "go ahead and do it", try to talk them out of giving it to you. If they INSIST, then go do it.


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By Jimbo
Oct 30, 2012

I have never felt ownership of any crag we have developed. Indeed this feeling of ownership is what bothers me most about this whole affair. In my heart of hearts I feel we had no moral or ethical obligation to give you a courtesy call. (In retrospect we obviously should have called before we drilled, but the ongoing debate here on MP has been fun to read!)

I am, however, curious about what you might have said? “The route on the left is mine but you guys can do the one on the right”? Like I or anyone else in the world needs someone’s permission to climb something on public land. When you walk down a sidewalk do you stop and ask the homeowners if it’s OK for you to walk in front of their house? Of course not it’s public property.

I do owe you an apology for perhaps under estimating your climbing ability. The two routes we bolted would have been the first things we bolted at this crag had we started development. Most of the routes you had done at this crag were moderates. The one that did look fairly hard had had the two bottom hangers missing for over a month. The routes we bolted looked harder than that one so I assumed you had popped in some anchors top roped them and couldn’t do these two routes. (I have told you I will give you an anchor set up for the one we used at the top of these routes.) I haven’t done the one you were working so I can’t say how hard it proved to be, but congratulation on the send.

The fact is an anchor at the top of a rock is no different than a claim bolt at the bottom of a route. Neither means it’s yours so everyone else has to stay off it until you decide to finish the route. Be it in one month or one year. This is why we start and finish a route before we start another. This way we eliminate the use of claim anchors. Sure we look to the left and look to the right and think to ourselves “that one over there is going to be good”. What we don’t do is run over and bang in an anchor to claim it.
In fact if you or someone else showed up with drill and gear in hand I would gladly point out that line and say, “have at it and let me know if you need any help”. Also if we came back in a few days or a week to discover someone had done that cool line we were looking at I would say “cool someone finished that line, lets climb it”!! What I wouldn’t do is stomp around all mad and post up on MP how I have been wronged by some nefarious scallywag poacher.

Perhaps this is the real difference between you and me. You feel I owe you a courtesy to call before I do a line on some cliff your developing. While I don’t feel you owe me anything but to do a good job on the route you put up on a cliff I’m developing. All I want is more good routes you apparently need something more.

As I’ve said to you before, Avalon is a fun new area that many climbers have and will enjoy for years to come. Kudos to you for all your work and expense!

Anyway the offer for you to do new routes with us (or without us) on any cliff we are developing is still open.


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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Oct 30, 2012
Toofast

jbak wrote:
Well...okay..., but what does "actively worked" mean ? For example: what if the FAist intends to work it once it's back "in season", but is not currently working it because it's too hot/cold/whatever ? I'd say... ask first. If they say "go ahead and do it", try to talk them out of giving it to you. If they INSIST, then go do it.


It is not theirs to give. People get way too terratorial about this stuff in my opinion. You are right that it is courteous to ask, and I think making allowance for seasons is reasonable if routes are tagged. A great example of this is Jailbreak; I think it was great that we gave Joe all the time he needed to snag it.

But to assume that people own a particular route or area that hasn't even been bolted is overboard in my opinon.

Overall, I am sorry that I upset Steve and never meant to offend him. And I certainly intend on talking with him to tell him that. What I want to avoid, however, is a system where people drill an anchor or a 1st bolt and then indefinitely think that they have claim to the incomplete route.


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By jbak
Oct 30, 2012
A steep climb too.

Geir wrote:
It is not theirs to give. People get way too terratorial about this stuff in my opinion. You are right that it is courteous to ask, and I think making allowance for seasons is reasonable if routes are tagged. A great example of this is Jailbreak; I think it was great that we gave Joe all the time he needed to snag it. But to assume that people own a particular route or area that hasn't even been bolted is overboard in my opinon.


I was speaking of individual routes.

And my feeling is: error on the side of courtesy. I mean... why not ?


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By J Q
Oct 30, 2012
Me again!

Geir wrote:
What I want to avoid, however, is a system where people drill an anchor or a 1st bolt and then indefinitely think that they have claim to the incomplete route.



Agreed. This would really suck if it becomes the "norm".


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