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Avalon- Poached Routes
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By Senior Hernandez
Oct 24, 2012
on the trip

Hate to say I told you so but, I told you so.


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Oct 24, 2012
Bucky

jackmeoff wrote:
Hi, my name is jack. I bolted those routes. sorry steve if they were yours but how the hell was i supposed to know? i don't come to this site because it's full of dickheads and it looks like i was right. i was talking about these lines to a friend and how the seem abandoned and he pointed me to this thread. never looked at this shit until now and just signed up for an account. as far as i know it's not private property and its a free country so early bird gets the worm, sorry.


Why end your statement with "sorry" when its obvious that you are not. And as far as your comment regarding this website being full of "dickheads"....well, the only post so far on this thread that could be construed as having been written by a jerk is yours. I'm glad your not part of my local community. Sheesh.


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By David Stephens
From Spokane WA.
Oct 24, 2012
Sport Climber

My money was on you EFR. ;-)

I have been driving 300 miles each way working a new route. This route is sick, it overhangs 30ft in 80 ft of sandstone pockets, it could be one of the best routes I have ever bolted! This crag is only 3 years old and has 15 routes by 3 other climbers "all innocent" they say. On my last trip, I found my route of 2 years(I know...I know 2 years!) all ticked up and the red tag was missing. I don't know how you feel about that; I'm just glad they did not leave the red tag on the anchors!!

I'm still just one move away from that send and I will name it A Red Tagged Whore.


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By Brigette
From Vancouver, WA
Oct 24, 2012
At the anchors.

jackmeoff wrote:
Hi, my name is jack. I bolted those routes. sorry steve if they were yours but how the hell was i supposed to know? i don't come to this site because it's full of dickheads and it looks like i was right. i was talking about these lines to a friend and how the seem abandoned and he pointed me to this thread. never looked at this shit until now and just signed up for an account. as far as i know it's not private property and its a free country so early bird gets the worm, sorry.



Troll?


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By Ed Wright
Oct 24, 2012
Magic Ed

If you had already put in the anchors and cleaned the rock and marked where the bolts should go, why didn't you go ahead and place the bolts??


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By Red
From Arizona
Oct 24, 2012
Cobra Kai

Brigette wrote:
Troll?

Most likely.


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By Red
From Arizona
Oct 24, 2012
Cobra Kai

"This route is sick, it overhangs 30ft in 80 ft of sandstone pockets, it could be one of the best routes I have ever bolted!
...I will name it A Red Tagged Whore."

Sounds like a good one! Send me a pic Dave!


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By Alex McIntyre
From Tucson, AZ
Oct 24, 2012

Brigette wrote:
Troll?

Is that even a question?


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By Colin Kenneth
From Berkeley, CA
Oct 24, 2012
A well-spent Saturday night. All of the college kids are back, and even so, I had the best seat in Boulder to myself. <br /> <br />Bear Peak, from my front door to front door in just under 4 hours, including riding my bike each way to the trailhead, and 20-30 minutes at the summit.

Way to let something trivial ruin your day.

It sucks to put a lot of work into something an not be recognized for it. But honestly, are you doing the work as an act of generosity and to benefit CLIMBING, as a sport, and a fairly democratic one at that...or were you simply doing it to put your name on it, and for your own gratuity?

I'd wager it's the former, so take 10 more seconds to shake your fist at the heavens, then take as many deep breaths and let's just climb for the love of it.

Thanks for all of your hard work, including cleaning these two particular routes.


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By Colin Kenneth
From Berkeley, CA
Oct 24, 2012
A well-spent Saturday night. All of the college kids are back, and even so, I had the best seat in Boulder to myself. <br /> <br />Bear Peak, from my front door to front door in just under 4 hours, including riding my bike each way to the trailhead, and 20-30 minutes at the summit.

David Stephens wrote:
On my last trip, I found my route of 2 years(I know...I know 2 years!) all ticked up and the red tag was missing. I don't know how you feel about that;


What is the statute of limitations on closed projects? If I came back to a crag several times over a year, and a route was continually "Closed," for no better reason than for the sake of it...I'd probably give climbing it a thought.

That being said, I wouldn't immediately jump on something the first time I saw it, if it was a project.

Really though, there comes a time when you should share your toys with others, and I think it falls well within two years.


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By jbak
Oct 24, 2012
A steep climb too.

David Stephens wrote:
I have been driving 300 miles each way working a new route. This route is sick, it overhangs 30ft in 80 ft of sandstone pockets, it could be one of the best routes I have ever bolted! This crag is only 3 years old and has 15 routes by 3 other climbers "all innocent" they say. On my last trip, I found my route of 2 years(I know...I know 2 years!) all ticked up and the red tag was missing.


That would be a tough one !

It's definitely easier to give away (or get over the poach of) a line that is not that good to begin with. The test of FA enlightenment is to give away a great line.


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By Steven W. Johnson
From Tucson, Arizona
Oct 24, 2012

Thanks for the understanding, support and the discussion on ethics and community partnership. I have been informed of who the person is that made a disheartening decision. The sad part is saw me many weeks over the summer going into Avalon. Also, they knew prior to and after their actions that I was working on the routes. We discussed my dilemma of how to protect and not over bolt one routes crux. I have run into the individual at least twice with no mention by them of bolting the routes, but that they had been to Avalon a number of times; which, I took as a complement to the area. The main reason I haven't been back in the past weeks was because my drill battery was being rebuilt. My main hope is to have the person understand that it is simple courtesy to talk to people before they act. Climbing and climbing communities are based on partnership. Even a soloist partners with the community because they normally solo established routes. This for me is a community partnership issue with courtesy being one cornerstone of the community. Honestly, a person or party should not have to go through all sorts of effort to be given the courtesy of completing a route. I have never established a route in a new area without talking to the main developers; I would probably try to talk to them if it was an old area, like I have with Avalon. My history of route setting in putting up areas, I haven't felt the need to infill. Courtesy and respect are the hallmarks of any society and community. The person has been given my phone number to call me; it would be nice to be given a call as a courtesy. This is the end of the discussion for me. Thanks


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By Senior Hernandez
Oct 24, 2012
on the trip

Ed Wright wrote:
If you had already put in the anchors and cleaned the rock and marked where the bolts should go, why didn't you go ahead and place the bolts??



That's what I was thinking.


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By jbak
Oct 24, 2012
A steep climb too.

Maybe he was out of bolts...or daylight...or battery juice.


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Oct 24, 2012
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

err, maybe this "..because my drill battery was being rebuilt". It can be a multitude of reasons though: ran out of power, sharp bit, bolts and hangers, Audubon president walks up and you don't want to drill in front of him, loaned your drill to a buddy for a weekend and they forgot to get it back, etc., or maybe just want to wait and have friends confirm the placements.


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Oct 24, 2012
modern man

fukin AZ is worse than CT with this shit! stolen pads, chopped bolts, traddies vs sportos vs boulderers vs douches, its like an REI/gym parking lot on the front range!


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By J Q
Oct 24, 2012
Me again!

M Sprague wrote:
err, maybe this "..because my drill battery was being rebuilt". It can be a multitude of reasons though: ran out of power, sharp bit, bolts and hangers, Audubon president walks up and you don't want to drill in front of him, loaned your drill to a buddy for a weekend and they forgot to get it back, etc., or maybe just want to wait and have friends confirm the placements.



This concept of ownership fascinates me. One time my shoulder was being rebuilt because it was torn up pretty badly while bouldering. However, the week before I had come up with the idea to bolt a route and had even top-roped said route once while ticking possible bolt placements and cleaning it. Does that make the route mine? The only real difference was the non presence of chains but that was because it was so easy to build an anchor at the top that I didn't bother on that day.

I ask because I did, and it was stolen, but I never thought to make something out of it. I figured that I was the one who tore his shoulder, I didn't put the bolts in yet, and that I would just be plain selfish to make everyone wait for my shoulder to heal before the route got put up.

I know it's a little different, but, you know, ethics are a bitch. I could re-name this route, everyone knows who actually discovered it and cleaned it, but I never named it. Should I name it now?


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Oct 24, 2012
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

It is more an issue of courtesy, Jon, than outright ownership. In your example, by not getting to putting the anchors in yet, it was probably a lot less obvious to others that you were actively working on it, so somebody snaking it could be unintentional. By going through the point of actually starting to put the bolts in, most would recognize that somebody has made some commitment to the route, at least enough to warrant finding out the deal before jumping on it with a drill.


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By Jonas Salk
Oct 24, 2012

So where is Avalon located? I'd love to go check it out now that it's all developed! : )


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By Steven W. Johnson
From Tucson, Arizona
Oct 24, 2012

Avalon
(Summer 2012)
Approach:
Park at the very top of Mt. Lemmon. Take control road passed the Lemmon Lookout trail turnoff. Go passed rusty corrugated steel building on right of control road. Go up a short rise in the road, nearing the top of the rise just before entering the pine trees there will be at trail on the left dropping down the ridge toward Rappel Rock (There may be a cairn or what is left of one). Follow this trail to the small ridge just behind Rappel Rock. There you will see a very distinct trail heading down to the right. Take this trail, the start of Avalon is the slab looking rock to your right.

Climbs: Need 60 meter rope for longest routes. Routes from East to West or facing wall, right to left.
1. Serf 5.Easy (Solo) Short black slabby section right of Fife.
2. Fife 5.Easy (B,A) Slab to chicken heads
3. Squire 5.Easy (B,A) Slab to higher chicken head finish.
4. Chastity 5.8 (B,G,A) Slab to horizontal weakness.
5. Lady of the lake 5.9 (B,A) Short steep face to slab to headwall.
6. Launcelot Deulake 5.9 (B,A) Short steep face to slab to headwall.
7. Forged with Ancient Mental 5.12?R (B,A) Slab to two spaced out old bolts to new bolts.
8. The Quest 5.10+ (B,C) Slab to head wall.
9. Project (Please stay off)
10. Project (Please stay off)
11. The Tourney Slot 5.10 (B,A) Slab to corner to black headwall.
12. Project (Bolted, no first two hangers- Please stay off)
13. Relic 5.9+ (B,G,sA) Several starts, two old bolts. Shares anchors left.
14. Little Miss treatment 5.9 (B,G,sA) Lieback to slab/face for 3 bolts (new-old-new).
15. Little Miss 5.8+ (B,G,A) Crescent flake (L to R) to headwall.
16. Camelot 5.10+ (B,G,A) Then slab to easy gear dihedral.
17. Maid Marian 5.9 (B,A) Easy slab to dihedral to two roofs.
18. The Holy Grail 5.11- (B,A) Thin slab to slabby headwall. Look for the Grail.
19. Green Knight 5.10- (B,A) Corner to short face to low angle.
20. Knights of the Round Table 5.10+ (B,G,A) Boulders to black bolts on right. Gear at top.
21. Sorcererís Apprentice 5.8 (B,A) Boulders to brown bolts on left.
22. Sir Mordede 5.7 (B,G,A) Left edge of cove left of 20 & 21.Two bolts to wide crack.
23. Gauen, Not so fearless 5.9 (B,G,A) Groove past cut trees to boulder then up through bolts.
24. Merlinís Miracle 5.6 (B,A) Slight slab start, left to right angling bolts.
25. Sword and the Stone 5.9 (B,A) Bolt line left of Merlinís easy climbing to .9 crux.
26. Black Knight 5.8 (G,A) Climbs corner/dihedral. I know, I need to clean foliage.

Notes:
B= Bolts G= Gear A= Anchor (Lowering carabineers or quicklinks) sA= Share Anchors

The five old bolts on Forged.., Relic and Little Miss Treatment are 20 plus years old. I have not fallen on them but they seem solid. After talking with other Tucson first ascentionists, they recommend replacing them, so I will be. It is not known who put the first three death defying routes up. In talking with other Tucson ascentionists, it was suggested, and recommended by some, that I protect Little Miss Treatment better. This is because of the potential of someone getting on it with the confidence inspired by the well protected new routes around it. I have added a bolt below and one of above the original single bolt that protected the route to protect the long and even longer ground falls.
Season is from when the upper section of the mountain opens in March/April to the end of November. Avalon and the far eastern end of the formation known as Dakota Territory are not list as part of the closure.
(At the left end of the Avalon is a trail that heads South to the West end of Rappel Rock. Follow this trail to large boulders, go under boulders to rap station that goes to West end of Rappel Rock. 7 minutes from ridge to rap station.)


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 24, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

David Stephens wrote:
My money was on you EFR. ;-)


I am hurt (sad face icon). I really don't make a habit of snagging others routes unless they leave them for an extended period with a claim bolt. The only routes I did were there for like 7 years or more so that is hardly poaching a route.

I had a project at Enchanted tower in NM and had to drive 61/2 hours each way each weekend. It took me 4 or 5 weekends to get it.


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 24, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

Steven W. Johnson wrote:
The person has been given my phone number to call me; it would be nice to be given a call as a courtesy. This is the end of the discussion for me. Thanks


Said person sent you an email a day or two ago Steve to set up a meet in person.


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 24, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

A few more questions and then I am done with questions, for now.

What if said poacher replaced old bolts on one of the old routes at Avalon.

What if Avalon isn't Avalon at all because whoever it was that did at least 3 routes before Steve got there named it. Should Steve have talked to those folks before he started drilling?

Maybe the folks that did the original 3 routes wanted to leave some stone for FA teams in the future and now Steve has come along and claimed the wall. There is a lot of gray in this matter. (gray matter) did anyone get that?


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By JMo
From Flagstaff, AZ
Oct 24, 2012
mayflower

Which etower route was it, Eric if you don't mind sharing?


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By Paul Davidson
Oct 24, 2012

rap station to rap rock ? I remember a trivial 3rd class down through those boulders.
Am I just forgetting ?


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