Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Avalon- Poached Routes
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 6.  1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Steven W. Johnson
From Tucson, Arizona
Oct 22, 2012

Does anyone know who has recently, other than me, bolted routes at Avalon on Mt. Lemmon. I went back yesterday, after a short break, to work on one of the two 'established' projects to find that they both had been bolted; poached. It was very disheartening, especially after spending two solid months worth of weekends this summer developing the area of 21 estalished routes to have the last two routes poached. I put the anchors up, I cleaned the routes, I marked the bolt placements on one, and I published the routes as [closed] projects ("Please stay off") on the route list; over a hundred route lists went into the Tucson climbing community. It looks like on one route they used my bolt placement marks. The person, or persons, didn't have the courtesy to call and ask if they were open projects. Sad, just very sad,the lack of respect.


FLAG
By Rik
From Tucson, AZ
Oct 22, 2012
Skull

I don't know who did it, but just wanted to say thanks for all your hard work. We did a couple of routes on our way back from the Fortress, and they were very good.


FLAG
By Senior Hernandez
Oct 22, 2012
on the trip

Sounds shitty, thank you, and no. Did you actually tag the routes?

Seems to me that marking a bolt placement and calling it your route is a bit premature. I have marked bolt placements on top-rope and never gone back for numerous reasons. Not everyone reads this site so . . . How do you know it was actually climbed clean? Or was it easy enough to make assumptions?

Good news: someone bolted "your" route and now you can send it on the cheap. Begin the naming wars. You might win this one.


FLAG
By Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Oct 22, 2012
A grey fox skull wedged in a crack 100' up on a FA I was working on - don't see that every day...

Steven W. Johnson wrote:
developing the area of 21 estalished routes to have the last two routes poached.


Bogart ;) Just kidding, but maybe that's what the poachers thought?


FLAG
By Hendrixson
Administrator
From Tucson, AZ
Oct 22, 2012
Enjoying 'Ground Affects'.

I agree with Steve. At least in Tucson where the climbing community is small and the rock plentiful, poaching routes at a crag under development without a discussion is poor form.


FLAG
By jbak
Oct 22, 2012
A steep climb too.

That sucks Steve. I sorta feel your pain (I've had routes poached) but the reality is... none of us own the rock, so you gotta let it go.

Look on the bright side, they saved you some bolts. I know a place where you could use them if you wanna come along.

If you find out any more details, I'd like to know about it (via PM or text if appropriate ?)


FLAG
By Joe Lee
From Las Vegas
Oct 22, 2012

Some climbers really enjoy putting up new routes. And we are all indebted. For those route climbers that toil, this is a very important subject. And the climbing community should be supportive of their immense contributions. I think it's wrong to tamper with a new route in progress and shortsighted to dismiss this behavior as trivial.

Thanks Steve for establishing another great crag on Mt Lemmon. Sorry to hear about the news.


FLAG
By Red
From Arizona
Oct 23, 2012
Cobra Kai

That sucks Steve! It amazes me how rock sits right in front of some people for years and they have no interest in putting a route up until they see someone else doing it first. It's not like you abandoned these lines for years. Wasn't it only weeks?


FLAG
 
By Red
From Arizona
Oct 23, 2012
Cobra Kai

Steven W. Johnson wrote:
I published the routes as [closed] projects ("Please stay off") on the route list; over a hundred route lists went into the Tucson climbing community.

Where are these lists Steve? I don't see Avalon here on MP.


FLAG
By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Oct 23, 2012
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

Climb the routes and put them down as yours. The rest of the community should disregard ascents when stolen in that manner. You put the work in to finding, cleaning them and placing the anchors and were actively working on them. Unless you had a reputation of doing a bad job and somebody preemptively bolted, stealing like that is BS.


FLAG
By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Oct 23, 2012
Me and my Fetish I guess.. ;)

M Sprague wrote:
Climb the routes and put them down as yours. The rest of the community should disregard ascents when stolen in that manner. You put the work in finding, cleaning them and placing the anchors and were actively working on them. Unless you had a reputation of doing a bad job and somebody preemptively bolted, stealing like that is BS.

+1 It's not like it would have been hard to get info on this area and the anchors. You're not exactly reclusive or hard to find. :) I think that, in time, the folks that did the bolting will surface.

EDIT:: To play devil's advocate here - there is a chance that the person(s) that bolted these honestly didn't see any issue with it and didn't see it as 'poaching'. After all, there is no license required to buy a drill. Perhaps it was a case of a couple young, enthusiastic climbers that just haven't been introduced to bolting ethics, etc. Think back to your first couple weeks/months of climbing then apply that to the general public today. Could just be an honest mistake. If this is the case, a gentle approach to finding the bolter might be more productive.


FLAG
By David Arthur Sampson
Oct 23, 2012
Slap/Tickle

M Sprague wrote:
Climb the routes and put them down as yours. The rest of the community should disregard ascents when stolen in that manner. You put the work in finding, cleaning them and placing the anchors and were actively working on them. Unless you had a reputation of doing a bad job and somebody preemptively bolted, stealing like that is BS.

++1


FLAG
By Alex McIntyre
From Tucson, AZ
Oct 23, 2012

This wasn't me, but I honestly don't see why this is the huge deal you're making it out to be. I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but why does it matter who bolted a route? It is actually beneficial to you because you don't have to pay for the bolts and hangars. Not to mention, how can you tell they have been redpointed if the party(ies) involved haven't said anything? I just don't understand why it matters. The area might be "your baby," but that doesn't give you the exclusive right to put up routes there. If you haven't bolted the route, it isn't "yours".

As for "publishing" them as closed projects- as a Tucson climber I've never seen the route list for Avalon other than a quick glance at the one posted rather inconspicuously on the board at Rocks & Ropes (it appears from a distance to be no different than the usual partner seeking and gear selling ads), and there is zero info here on MountainProject. I really don't think that is adequately publishing that they are closed projects.

@M Sprague- That seems both ridiculous and unnecessarily hostile. Knowingly publishing information that is incorrect for the sole purpose of taking an accomplishment away from another climber(s) because someone feels they've been wronged is outrageous.

Full disclosure: I've never climbed at Avalon or put up any routes anywhere.


FLAG
By Jeff Kent
From Sedona, Az
Oct 23, 2012

Alex McIntyre wrote:
This wasn't me, but I honestly don't see why this is the huge deal you're making it out to be. I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but why does it matter who bolted a route? It is actually beneficial to you because you don't have to pay for the bolts and hangars. Not to mention, how can you tell they have been redpointed if the party(ies) involved haven't said anything? I just don't understand why it matters. The area might be "your baby," but that doesn't give you the exclusive right to put up routes there. If you haven't bolted the route, it isn't "yours". As for "publishing" them as closed projects- as a Tucson climber I've never seen the route list for Avalon other than a quick glance at the one posted rather inconspicuously on the board at Rocks & Ropes (it appears from a distance to be no different than the usual partner seeking and gear selling ads), and there is zero info here on MountainProject. I really don't think that is adequately publishing that they are closed projects. @M Sprague- That seems both ridiculous and unnecessarily hostile. Knowingly publishing information that is incorrect for the sole purpose of taking an accomplishment away from another climber(s) because someone feels they've been wronged is outrageous. Full disclosure: I've never climbed at Avalon or put up any routes anywhere.


I think that about sums it up.


FLAG
By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 23, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

It wasn't me and I would not have done any routes there as I knew Steve was looking at doing those routes but all the posts have me pondering these questions.

What if the poacher thought Steve was done there?

What if the poacher didn't see a single bolt tick mark? It was the rainy season.

What if the poacher had looked at the cliff and decided he better do a route quick before they had all been done.

What if the poacher would be happy to let others drill in any area they were developing?

What if the poacher doesn't think that anyone owns an area no matter how many routes they have developed at the crag?

What if the poacher doesn't think that anyone owns an area no matter how many claim anchors or claim bolts they leave?

Why oh why would the guy who did a little work on two lines that some other person did the FA of want to claim the FA?

What if the Poacher didn't see a single bolt drilled or a red tag?

What if the poacher is a developer that drills up tons of routes and regularly gives the first ascent to whoever happens to be along that day whether they helped or not?

Makes me think of the guys who developed the Hobo Jungle in Flagstaff. They invited anyone and everyone to help out with the development.

Just asking.


FLAG
By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Oct 23, 2012
Bocan

Alex McIntyre wrote:
This wasn't me, but I honestly don't see why this is the huge deal you're making it out to be. I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but why does it matter who bolted a route? It is actually beneficial to you because you don't have to pay for the bolts and hangars. Not to mention, how can you tell they have been redpointed if the party(ies) involved haven't said anything? I just don't understand why it matters. The area might be "your baby," but that doesn't give you the exclusive right to put up routes there. If you haven't bolted the route, it isn't "yours".


"It was very disheartening, especially after spending two solid months worth of weekends this summer developing the area of 21 estalished routes to have the last two routes poached. I put the anchors up, I cleaned the routes"

Two months is a long time to spend to have someone swoop in and poach his lines. I would imagine if you spent that amount of personal time, effort and hard work you might be very upset as well.

One thing I've noticed in these threads about poaching, chopping etc. is that I think that other climbers are discouraging the development of routes in these areas. In my opinion it would really be a disservice to our sport and us as climbers if these developers said "F this, it's not worth it" and stopped their contributions.


FLAG
 
By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 23, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

Hey Jbak, what route have you had poached. Did you give it to them then take it back then give it to them and take it back?


FLAG
By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 23, 2012
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

My personal ethic is to leave it to the folks who found it unless I have looked at or been there before they started drilling. I also don't think that doing a route that another has put a ton of work into cleaning and has bolted and is regularly trying to send is good form.


FLAG
By J. Albers
From Colorado
Oct 23, 2012
Bucky

Alex McIntyre wrote:
This wasn't me, but I honestly don't see why this is the huge deal you're making it out to be. I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but why does it matter who bolted a route? It is actually beneficial to you because you don't have to pay for the bolts and hangars. Not to mention, how can you tell they have been redpointed if the party(ies) involved haven't said anything? I just don't understand why it matters. The area might be "your baby," but that doesn't give you the exclusive right to put up routes there. If you haven't bolted the route, it isn't "yours". As for "publishing" them as closed projects- as a Tucson climber I've never seen the route list for Avalon other than a quick glance at the one posted rather inconspicuously on the board at Rocks & Ropes (it appears from a distance to be no different than the usual partner seeking and gear selling ads), and there is zero info here on MountainProject. I really don't think that is adequately publishing that they are closed projects. @M Sprague- That seems both ridiculous and unnecessarily hostile. Knowingly publishing information that is incorrect for the sole purpose of taking an accomplishment away from another climber(s) because someone feels they've been wronged is outrageous.


The above part of your post makes this:

Alex McIntyre wrote:
Full disclosure: I've never put up any routes anywhere.


abundantly clear. M. Sprague isn't being overly hostile at all....he just obviously knows that putting up a route takes a lot of time and effort. If you haven't ever put up a route, then you probably have no idea why getting a route poached would be so disappointing and annoying. I'm not trying to be dick, but your post makes you come across as ignorant, not to mention completely ungrateful to those folks who take the time, money, and effort to put up the routes that you climb. Its not like Steve is asking for money or applause for putting up routes, he is just asking for a minimum in common courtesy.

To Steve (the OP),
Sorry about the routes that were poached.
Cheers.


FLAG
By jbak
Oct 24, 2012
A steep climb too.

Alex' post may be a little hard-edged, but his logic is sound.

EFR has reached FA enlightenment. I think I'm getting to the same place even though I've only put up .1% as many routes.

I talked to Steve and I think we agreed that it's not really a big deal. I mean... nobody's getting rich off this sh*t or anything. I proposed this thought experiment: Suppose you just drilled an anchor and were rapping down to mark bolt placements. Some hotshot (Alex ?) shows up at the base of your route and free-solos the FA. What do you say ? The only response that makes sense to me is: "Well done !".

EFR, the route you are joking about taught me alot about the confluence of ego and climbing. That was a sad deal. I told the "other party" to just red-tag the route, but he did not trust the community to honor it. I didn't get it. Tucson climbers are pretty good about red tags. Look at how long Jailbreak was preserved for young awesome Joe.

Topics like this are good in the sense that they cause us to ask "why do we climb ?". To impress others with our tough routes and get our name in the guide ? Sure, but we all know that's lame.

One of my all-time best partners has done a lot of big, hard, bad-ass FAs. And he never mentioned ANY of them to me. Not one. He climbed solely for himself and had no interest in what other people thought. That is so cool.


FLAG
By Max Tepfer
From Bend, OR
Oct 24, 2012

Yes, it sucks. Yes, what they did violates established ethics, but the reality is that, like has been said, if it's all going to get done anyway, then why does it matter who does it first? Because of how our traditions have developed, we assign merit and measure our egos based partially by our 'firsts'.

Situations like this underscore (to me, at least) the fundamentals of why I climb. Is the goal to develop routes for others to enjoy or is it to satisfy my desire for accolade? In the end, it's both, but one is clearly more important than the other. Pretty much anything I think about putting up could easily be done by many other climbers stronger than myself if they had the opportunity, so, in my mind, whether or not I get the FFA isn't really the point. Opening a beautiful stretch of stone that people love to climb is the point.


FLAG
By Robbie Mackley
From Tucson, AZ
Oct 24, 2012
Me and Holden at the "Matterhorn"

Question:
How many climbers does it take to bolt a pitch?
Answer:
3-infinity. 1 to bolt/climb the line, 1 to belay, and the rest to say "I saw it first. I rapped it, I cleaned it, I own it untill I send it."
But seriously, thanks to you all for the routes.
-Mackley


FLAG
By frankstoneline
Oct 24, 2012

If the anchors are in, it ought to be left alone pending a discussion with the person who put the anchors in regarding the lines. This is an ethical standard that has been established, but no one knows that unless they have been actively involved in the community.

To those who say it's no big deal, it is crucial to keep in mind that the (maybe) 1% of climbers who develop new routes do so because they love the experience of bolting (presumably). The folks who want to be known and want people to think they are all sorts of rad because they bolted new rigs get discouraged pretty quick by the hardware bill/hard work/sacrifices to days they could be blogging about their sweet sends and fighting the other piglets in the shit for a nibble at the sponsorship teet. With that in mind, it's not simply the existence of another route that is paramount to the majority of developers but the whole process. It sucks when you tie in for an onsight burn and then some broheim sprays you down with all the beta, similar deal, but with WAY more loss.

The optimist in me hopes this was some sort of misunderstanding, but thats impossible to know without an honest admission from the folks who bolted 'er.


FLAG
By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Oct 24, 2012
Stabby

Everyone who develops sport routes knows the hardest part is almost always getting the anchors in. Cleaning may supercede that, but if that takes up too much effort I'll call it choss and leave it for others. Jumping on some brand new anchors and zooking in a line is not technically forbidden in our stupid world of made-up 'rules', but it is definitely douchy. A gray area of thinking the anchors were abandoned may apply, so it comes down to what knowledge of the area the offender has.

A case of mistaken identity


FLAG
 
By jackmeoff
Oct 24, 2012

Hi, my name is jack. I bolted those routes. sorry steve if they were yours but how the hell was i supposed to know? i don't come to this site because it's full of dickheads and it looks like i was right. i was talking about these lines to a friend and how the seem abandoned and he pointed me to this thread. never looked at this shit until now and just signed up for an account. as far as i know it's not private property and its a free country so early bird gets the worm, sorry.


FLAG
By Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Oct 24, 2012
A grey fox skull wedged in a crack 100' up on a FA I was working on - don't see that every day...

jackmeoff wrote:
Hi, my name is jack. I bolted those routes. sorry steve if they were yours but how the hell was i supposed to know? i don't come to this site because it's full of dickheads and it looks like i was right. i was talking about these lines to a friend and how the seem abandoned and he pointed me to this thread. never looked at this shit until now and just signed up for an account. as far as i know it's not private property and its a free country so early bird gets the worm, sorry.


Priceless. Rhoads should be here any minute in your defense.


FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 6.  1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>