Avalanche Airbag Packs

Do they work? Any reliable statistics? Any models with >4500 cubic inches for mountaineering use?

Mixed results & misleading sample sets from biased experimentation. In Dale's review, they would have only turned around an actual avalanche fatality situation in 3 out of 100 cases of successful deployments given our terrain.

denverpost.com/breakingnews…

Obviously, a stark contrast of the 95+% success rate that they are marketed.

Airbags are definitely in the hype phase. Manufactures see how fast shops can blow out of 700-900 dollar back packs and everyone is jumping the game.

The concept however is solid. In the right situation, Soft slab avalanche, on an open face, with no down slope hazards like cliff bands of tree stands, any Avy air-bag WILL keep you from getting buried reducing the potential for trauma and the need for a search. The issue is it wont do any good deploying one in a wooded run where the bag could easily be popped, or on top of a slope with a cliffs and trees on it which will grind you up and strain you out...

In my mind its the temptation of having this fancy new safety toy on your back leading you onto suspect slope in the first place being the biggest pitfall of these devices. In places like colorado airbags dont seem super practical due to the terrible snow pack (always) and the conservative BC skier very rarely skiing the terrain in which an air bag will help you in(open alpine slopes). If you live in the pacific north west or alaska, get one. For the terrain it would be an every day go to item.

Either way Its another piece of safety gear that could save your life. So why not. If you can afford one.

Buff Johnson wrote:Mixed results & misleading sample sets from biased experimentation. In Dale's review, they would have only turned around an actual avalanche fatality situation in 3 out of 100 cases of successful deployments given our terrain. denverpost.com/breakingnews… Obviously, a stark contrast of the 95+% success rate that they are marketed.

In case of a water "landing" my seat is equipped with a flotation device. That device isn't going to do a damn bit of good if I'm skewered by the scraps of metal that the plane became upon impact. But, in the rare chance that I find myself alive and bobbing in the ocean, I'm gonna be pretty happy to have one of those flotation devices.

When we can we adapt one to climbing?

Lots of good info/discussion on airbags over on wildsnow.

wildsnow.com/3736/airbag-ov…

wildsnow.com/5014/avalanche…

Last year there was an avalanche at my home mtn Stevens Pass in WA. 3 great skiers were killed and a 4th Elyse Saugstad survived because of her airbag pack. They are a GREAT investment if you plan on skiing out of bounds. Call me paranoid but my personal setup if a BCA float with an avalung on top, and always a transponder.
nydailynews.com/news/nation…

I am waiting to get an airbag myself. The problem is that all of the airbags up until now have only been single deployment. That doesn't work for me because I have a tendency to pull an airbag one to two times a day. Current bags, if deployed are one shot cylinders and if your not carrying a second shot, then your day is done if you have to pull. You either have to go back to the car and get your second shot or go home all together if you don't have a spare canister.

Example: If I am out riding and I get caught, pull my bag and go for a safe bubbly ride and still want to ride after that because the conditions are so good, I am screwed. Days done and I have to go home. I think the technology is coming and getting close, but until I can pull 3-4 x's a day they are just not practical for me.

What if I am skiing a 9000ft run and I pull my bag in the first 1000 and get caught. My safe and happy bag floats me away harmlessly from the carnage but now I still have 8000ft more in my descent. I guess I have no choice but to ski the next 8k with my bags already open, but then you look really dumb and it's not as fun as pulling the trigger when you need it.

On another note, Airbags are nothing new, They have been around since 1985. The technology is 28 years old in Europe.

They are quite common place amongst the guides in Europe and general public that ski off piste. One veteran French Guide once told me that Avalungs are so American, meaning they only work after you are buried and can't breathe vs the bag he was carrying which if successful keeps you from being buried he pointed to his bag and said this is European and then pointed to a BD lung pack and said American. It was right around the time BCA introduced the float and their really wasn't any other American distribution or competition for bags, but they were alive and well on this side of the pond and very common place.

I don't use an airbag, I am not for or against it. Pros and Cons for sure and not something you need to wear every day, but for those who say it's a device that folks tend to get over confident with then I say to the same people why is that mentality any different then wearing a transceiver? I agree some people are over teched out these days.

For example there are hundreds of Hmann2's out there. Airbag, Avalung and a "transponder" All the technology in the world isn't gonna replace a brain, but more importantly education, and not just a course or a quick parking lot lesson in rescue with your "transponder" It takes continuing education and practice. More importantly terrain choices and travel techniques which are probably the most overlooked skill set on the planet right now. Technology has allowed people to go further and faster then ever before. The skis make the learning curve fast as well, so people tend to ski beyond their education and mountain experience levels quickly.

I am gonna make up a number and a statistic that is based on nothing and no evidence or research supports this what so ever. I simply made this up. I bet at least 90% of the folks who own transceivers don't know how to use them and have not practiced with them since they first bought them and maybe read the directions once. Maybe the same number of folks don't know how to lead or execute a real live rescue in the event of a live scenario. At best they know the basics but its not a fine tuned skill set for many. Even the best in the business who are far from experts are still practicing, learning and refining their rescue skills. Maybe this 90% of folks needs to be wearing bags?

And for those of you who don't know how airbags work, a bag of Potato chips is the best example. If you shake a bag of chips, all the big chips float to the top, and the little pieces sink to the bottom. Voila, that is the concept of airbag technology, to make you a big chip in a see of little chips that are shaking violantly.

I don't use an airbag, but we are on a turning point in the industry where I fear they will become institutionally required, and part of a standard kit in addition to a brain, education, shovel, probe, and transceiver. They have saved some lives, as have transceivers, but they don't make you invincible, and not all stories are that of success, but even if it's 1 live that gets saved, then its a good thing.

They have there place, and I fear the day is coming when all guided groups, patrol, resort employees and control workers will be required by law or insurance to wear them.

There was a case in Switzerland where a patroler died doing control work and the lawyers said an airbag might of saved his life, yet no one will ever know and now all resort patrol are required to have bags issued.

Another interesting story here in Europe is of a Guide that survived a slide and clients were killed. Guide was the only one wearing a bag. Still waiting to see how that pans out.

In the states, Look at the industry standards and how they are moving. Most ski patrol have requirements to wear helmets now, but to take it a step further, they are all starting to wear or be required to wear bags.

I have little respect for A-Basin, but their patrol is now starting to rock bags. I argued with one old school patroler at A B about 4 years ago about bags. I proposed the question, If you were caught in an avalanche, your going down, no two ways about it, You can only have 1 item, what do you choose,

Avalung,
Transciever,
Or Airbag,

He chose neither and said he chooses his dog. I argued the bag might be the best ticket, especially in Colorado where most folks might not be as schooled with transcievers as they should be, but he ripped into the uselessness of a bag. Well that same patroler got a free BCA float last year and although has never had to use it and really doesn't get out that much anymore swears about how cool his bag is and how much he loves it. He probably loves it because it was free and doesn't have to carry that much crap with him if he is just patrolling at the Basin, Those guys don't do that much work anyway so they can use a float or snowpulse because they will never fill the bag up to Angry Midget status anyway.

Ok, there is my rant and my two sarchastic cents about airbags but what do I know, I don't get out much, I just read about all this on the interweb.

I personally think they should make bigger bags with helium in them so when you pull you can just float away.

Lookout, Black Diamond and Arcteryx are now entering the airbag race, seems like everyone wants a piece of the pie now. Those two companies have some money so it will be interesting to see how this saturated market continues. Seems like the classic American trait though, Sell technology, defense mechanisms and ammunition, not education.

Unless you have been living in a Backcountry bubble then you might not of seen or heard of this video of Xavier De la Rue, Arguably the best snowboarder alive right now, but might not be if it wasnt for ABS. I am 100% convinced that the bag saved his life in this monster.

youtube.com/watch?v=_C_P2Nd…

I was one of the folks who got starry eyed when I was first looking at the stats a few years ago. But there's a lot more going on there than the stats show, and I've moderated my voice quite a bit. FWIW, even a basic level avalanche awareness course is worth it, if you've not been through one. There are some that are tailored to folks other than skiers/boarders.

As far as a 70+ liter pack goes, I don't think it exists.

JPVallone wrote:I am waiting to get an airbag myself. The problem is that all of the airbags up until now have only been single deployment. That doesn't work for me because I have a tendency to pull an airbag one to two times a day. Current bags, if deployed are one shot cylinders and if your not carrying a second shot, then your day is done if you have to pull. You either have to go back to the car and get your second shot or go home all together if you don't have a spare canister.

Man JP...either you got huge balls or your just don't give a sh*t. Luckily I've never been caught myself, but you actually get avied on, then go back out? AND you actually want a bag that will let you do that 3-4 tIMES A DAY????? How long do you think you can get away with that before it catches up to you? And I say that wishing only the safest riding for you.

As far as the bag is concerned, I have one. Hell even if the rate of survival is 25%, as long as it's ME that is in the 25% it's worth it. 50% of the time it works all the time!! haha good enough for me. Additionally seeing the case where the bag helped created a partial burial which allowed the ABS rider to rescue his full burial partner. Again it's not 100% sure to save your life, but you only need it to save you one time right??? It's not like you actually require a 100% rate.

How much is your life worth anyways?

And a 70L ABS bag would be HEAVY. My 30L is like 8lbs I believe without gear.

As always, if reviewing the science isn't giving you the answer that you want, just make up something and be extreme about it.

I believe they're a great tool to add as stated earlier by Joe, but they're no replacement for education. I feel like every person buying an ABS pack needs to have an AVY I as a prerequisite to owning one.

I have an ABS pack and I don't feel like it promotes risky behavior. I think of it as akin to seatbelts. Just because my car has them and I use them I don't go rally my car like I'm invincible. But if I'm in a wreck (for whatever reason) I'm glad to have them as they may make a difference.

As for the stats, I think I read an article a few months back from one of the avy conferences that said the 95% survival rate that ABS uses if for situations in which the bag was properly deployed and the slide was survivable even if the bag was not used. So for instance take the following example:

Ex. 1. You get slid and go over a 100ft cliff into rocks and die. <--not counted in statistic, as that is fatal regardless of safety equipment (avalung, airbag, etc.) So this basically encompasses all blunt force trauma.

Ex 2. You get slid in an open bowl. Most fatalaties in that situation will result from CO2 poisoning or asphyxiation so the only way to survive that slide is getting dug out or not being buried in the first place. That is where the airbag matters.

So the final analysis is that the airbags work by making your odds of surviving a survivable slide 95% succesful (if you pull the trigger and the slide is survivable barring blunt force trauma fatality). It is NOT saying that the bag makes you 95% likely to survive any avalanche. And that is a big difference. And as for the cost.... I suppose I won't need the $1000 bucks when I'm dead.

UPDATE: Looked at some more numbers and according to some Swiss studies only about 13% of people who are caught in slides end up dying ( thewary.com/research/statis…) and then if you add that to the numbers here ( ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl…) which state that about 75% of deaths are from asphyxiation then we can say that in the case of 100 skier being caught we get the following:

100 caught
13 die overall
~10 died of asphyxiation, so
at a 95% success rate for an avy bag as described above,
9 would probably have survived (I am assuming the data that ruled 75% of deaths due to asphyxiation was assuming that if blunt force was involved, it likely would have been survivable if not for the asphixiation).

Looked at in that light. The numbers start looking more and more convincing for use of airbags.

On a final note I'd say the best setup would probably be an avalung sling for treeline and below worn below your airbag so if you get slid in the upper bowl you can blow off the bags and stay on top, or if you made it through that upper run but get slid in some trees and your bags burst from tree damage, you still have a shot at life with your avalung.

Better yet, make wise choiuces based on terrain, conditions, and intuition.

Scott McMahon wrote: Man JP...either you got huge balls or your just don't give a sh*t. Luckily I've never been caught myself, but you actually get avied on, then go back out? AND you actually want a bag that will let you do that 3-4 tIMES A DAY????? How long do you think you can get away with that before it catches up to you? And I say that wishing only the safest riding for you. As far as the bag is concerned, I have one. Hell even if the rate of survival is 25%, as long as it's ME that is in the 25% it's worth it. 50% of the time it works all the time!! haha good enough for me. Additionally seeing the case where the bag helped created a partial burial which allowed the ABS rider to rescue his full burial partner. Again it's not 100% sure to save your life, but you only need it to save you one time right??? It's not like you actually require a 100% rate. How much is your life worth anyways? And a 70L ABS bag would be HEAVY. My 30L is like 8lbs I believe without gear.

Sounds like he gets excited and suffers from premature deployment.

I see this whole discussion as people trying to put down bags because THEY THINK that people do more reckless stuff with them. Yet to see a study or survey of bag users who say "yeah I'm going to do this because I have a bag now".

It's an additional safety measure, whether or not people fully realize the limitations. Stupid people are still going to do stupid stuff, and right now more people are getting into SC/BC riding. More people always = more stupid people.

JPVallone wrote:I am waiting to get an airbag myself. The problem is that all of the airbags up until now have only been single deployment. That doesn't work for me because I have a tendency to pull an airbag one to two times a day.

If you feel the need to deploy your airbag 1-2 times/day, you are doing it wrong.

I've got an airbag pack. (Several of them, actually.) It's not magic, but it's a survival tool, just like a beacon, an avalung, probe, etc.

The best way to keep from being killed in a avalanche is to not get caught in one in the first place. However, I carry an airbag pack (and the other gear) just in case I screw up. It's like my car airbag. I hope I never have to rely on it to save me, but I like having an extra measure of surviveability in case I screw up.

JPVallone wrote:I am waiting to get an airbag myself. The problem is that all of the airbags up until now have only been single deployment. That doesn't work for me because I have a tendency to pull an airbag one to two times a day. Current bags, if deployed are one shot cylinders and if your not carrying a second shot, then your day is done if you have to pull. You either have to go back to the car and get your second shot or go home all together if you don't have a spare canister. Example: If I am out riding and I get caught, pull my bag and go for a safe bubbly ride and still want to ride after that because the conditions are so good, I am screwed. Days done and I have to go home. I think the technology is coming and getting close, but until I can pull 3-4 x's a day they are just not practical for me. What if I am skiing a 9000ft run and I pull my bag in the first 1000 and get caught. My safe and happy bag floats me away harmlessly from the carnage but now I still have 8000ft more in my descent. I guess I have no choice but to ski the next 8k with my bags already open, but then you look really dumb and it's not as fun as pulling the trigger when you need it. On another note, Airbags are nothing new, They have been around since 1985. The technology is 28 years old in Europe. They are quite common place amongst the guides in Europe and general public that ski off piste. One veteran French Guide once told me that Avalungs are so American, meaning they only work after you are buried and can't breathe vs the bag he was carrying which if successful keeps you from being buried he pointed to his bag and said this is European and then pointed to a BD lung pack and said American. It was right around the time BCA introduced the float and their really wasn't any other American distribution or competition for bags, but they were alive and well on this side of the pond and very common place. I don't use an airbag, I am not for or against it. Pros and Cons for sure and not something you need to wear every day, but for those who say it's a device that folks tend to get over confident with then I say to the same people why is that mentality any different then wearing a transceiver? I agree some people are over teched out these days. For example there are hundreds of Hmann2's out there. Airbag, Avalung and a "transponder" All the technology in the world isn't gonna replace a brain, but more importantly education, and not just a course or a quick parking lot lesson in rescue with your "transponder" It takes continuing education and practice. More importantly terrain choices and travel techniques which are probably the most overlooked skill set on the planet right now. Technology has allowed people to go further and faster then ever before. The skis make the learning curve fast as well, so people tend to ski beyond their education and mountain experience levels quickly. I am gonna make up a number and a statistic that is based on nothing and no evidence or research supports this what so ever. I simply made this up. I bet at least 90% of the folks who own transceivers don't know how to use them and have not practiced with them since they first bought them and maybe read the directions once. Maybe the same number of folks don't know how to lead or execute a real live rescue in the event of a live scenario. At best they know the basics but its not a fine tuned skill set for many. Even the best in the business who are far from experts are still practicing, learning and refining their rescue skills. Maybe this 90% of folks needs to be wearing bags? And for those of you who don't know how airbags work, a bag of Potato chips is the best example. If you shake a bag of chips, all the big chips float to the top, and the little pieces sink to the bottom. Voila, that is the concept of airbag technology, to make you a big chip in a see of little chips that are shaking violantly. I don't use an airbag, but we are on a turning point in the industry where I fear they will become institutionally required, and part of a standard kit in addition to a brain, education, shovel, probe, and transceiver. They have saved some lives, as have transceivers, but they don't make you invincible, and not all stories are that of success, but even if it's 1 live that gets saved, then its a good thing. They have there place, and I fear the day is coming when all guided groups, patrol, resort employees and control workers will be required by law or insurance to wear them. There was a case in Switzerland where a patroler died doing control work and the lawyers said an airbag might of saved his life, yet no one will ever know and now all resort patrol are required to have bags issued. Another interesting story here in Europe is of a Guide that survived a slide and clients were killed. Guide was the only one wearing a bag. Still waiting to see how that pans out. In the states, Look at the industry standards and how they are moving. Most ski patrol have requirements to wear helmets now, but to take it a step further, they are all starting to wear or be required to wear bags. I have little respect for A-Basin, but their patrol is now starting to rock bags. I argued with one old school patroler at A B about 4 years ago about bags. I proposed the question, If you were caught in an avalanche, your going down, no two ways about it, You can only have 1 item, what do you choose, Avalung, Transciever, Or Airbag, He chose neither and said he chooses his dog. I argued the bag might be the best ticket, especially in Colorado where most folks might not be as schooled with transcievers as they should be, but he ripped into the uselessness of a bag. Well that same patroler got a free BCA float last year and although has never had to use it and really doesn't get out that much anymore swears about how cool his bag is and how much he loves it. He probably loves it because it was free and doesn't have to carry that much crap with him if he is just patrolling at the Basin, Those guys don't do that much work anyway so they can use a float or snowpulse because they will never fill the bag up to Angry Midget status anyway. Ok, there is my rant and my two sarchastic cents about airbags but what do I know, I don't get out much, I just read about all this on the interweb. I personally think they should make bigger bags with helium in them so when you pull you can just float away. Lookout, Black Diamond and Arcteryx are now entering the airbag race, seems like everyone wants a piece of the pie now. Those two companies have some money so it will be interesting to see how this saturated market continues. Seems like the classic American trait though, Sell technology, defense mechanisms and ammunition, not education. Unless you have been living in a Backcountry bubble then you might not of seen or heard of this video of Xavier De la Rue, Arguably the best snowboarder alive right now, but might not be if it wasnt for ABS. I am 100% convinced that the bag saved his life in this monster. youtube.com/watch?v=_C_P2Nd…

Seriously. What. The. Fuck. Hahaha if you are pulling your avy bag a couple of times a day you are a moron. If I got caught in two avalanches in one season I would consider changing my practices. And you are really expecting to be caught in several avalanches a day? At first I thought you were joking but then you just kept typing....

^^^^

I think you should save your money so you can buy one of those nice keyboards with a return key.

Crag Dweller wrote:^^^^ I think you should save your money so you can buy one of those nice keyboards with a return key.

best comment thus far.

yeah, the stats aren't as compelling as the marketing, BUT, if you're taking the ride, do you want another 3-5-10% on your side? probably.

AVOIDANCE is the best strategy and beyond that...i'm pretty stoked on stacking the odds just a bit more in my favor. the wildsnow.com discussion is comprehensive on features/etc.

the Mystery Ranch pack looks like the burliest, biggest pack that might be best adapted to mtnring....but it's nearly 8 lbs.

keep your eyes peeled for more info on the statistics around the packs....i'll be curious to see the data after a few more years in CO...more trauma here than europe, so i'm assuming the packs won't be quite as effective, but that's an assumption....

i ski with the Mammut 30L and 45L for teaching courses and guiding. like them pretty well, ride well, i'd change a few details here and there, for sure...

the ABS packs look cool, but no American distribution at present, if memory serves.

best of luck, brudda!

I'm waiting for an ABS pack with a deployable hot air balloon.

Crag Dweller wrote:^^^^ I think you should save your money so you can buy one of those nice keyboards with a return key.

He's quoting stuff above.