Assisting the Second. Question

So I was 2 pitches up a route and my second was having trouble pulling the low crux. I was belaying her on a Reverso 4 in guide mode off a bomber anchor. She was too far down to drop a line to do a simple 2:1 assisted hoist so I decided to haul her up a few feet using a 3:1. I rigged my prussics and I didn't set up a ratchet prussic since I was belaying in guide mode. This was the first time I had attempted to haul while belaying in guide mode off the anchor. She is light and I was shocked when I couldn't budge her even an inch. Would the guide mode cause too much friction to pull? What could I have done to improve my systems efficiency?

The Dread Pirate Killis wrote:There is nothing I can say from the heart here that doesn't come off as a smart aleck response, but I mean this in the most serious way: Never climb with anyone you might have to haul under any circumstances, ever ever ever. Regarding the rescue situation you found yourself in because of your poor partner choice, I would: A) Peruse any of the fine self rescue books that typically give me a headache long before I learn anything useful, like I did, and: B) Equip your second with Tiblocs or prussiks and make sure they know how to use them in a pinch. Or, save yourself the trouble in the first place. That's what I would do.

I am not so sure you messed up in this situation. There are several things that can go wrong when climbing and most often they do. See Murphy's Law. Pulleys can often be difficult with dynamic ropes and especially so with belay devices that have high friction. If her weight is on the rope it is going to take one tough bastard to pull her up the wall even with a 3:1 pulley. I would suggest possibly bringing up a grigri the next time you find yourself with a new or inexperienced partner. Grigri's have a bit less friction than the traditional tube belay device with "guide mode." I would suggest that in the future scope the route out beforehand, online or in person, and talk it over with your partner. In this case doing an easier line may have made your day a little less epic.

I've done a 3:1 with a BD guide on a 9.7. Took a few pulls to get the 2nd up six ft. You can get 6:1 with a double length sling rigged as a 2:1 on the 3:1 YMMV.

-E

how heavy was your second? i've hauled up people no problem with a 3:1, never even thought about going to 5:1 due to trouble. you could always consider using a gri gri in that scenario. works equally as well and might feed a little smoother for you.

Since we're just talking about a short section, it's really not a big deal to try some things with the rigging. Check the rope over the edge for friction. If that's fine, try a 5 or 6. The autoblocking mode works as a self-capture. Yes, it's imperfect as a pulley, but it works.

You can also redirect and instead of pulling up, go down with the haul by standing in a foot loop, or incorporate your rope-side as a fixed safety. Then you can use yourself as the counter weight. Another idea is just to have the second prusik up the line; just be ready to take the slack once they regain a good stance.

The two important items are a bomber anchor and managing edge friction. The fact that someone had trouble with a section of rock is just part of the game and doesn't really aggravate me at all. I just slow things down, come up with a safe game plan, and try it. If it isn't working well, then make an adjustment and try again.

Wouldn't it have been easier for the second to jug the "fixed" line?

How wander-y was the route? The rope drag under tension could be pretty severe and add alot of friction.

I've hauled w/ my reverso before, but the friction in the device keeps it from being a 3:1, the rope will not move thru the device until you've already removed the load from the climber's side with the the prussik from below, so you're really just doing a 2:1 with a crappy upward pull. If you're on a ledge and can lock off the rope and do some squats to pull up, you'll move her and the device will capture and lock, otherwise you'll have to try a redirect and put your weight into it and hope the friction isn't too much.

I use guide-mode type devices often, but I'll use a grigri direct or give a redirected belay if i'm playing guide for my sisters or brother-in-laws because i can "power belay" them better if needed. My normal climbing partners can get thesmelves out of a jam if they have to.

Another option (and shit-ton of work) for getting out of this situation if all else failed and you HAD to get them up w/o them jugging would be to escape the device out of the belay and re-set for a redirected belay/direct 1:1 haul. Using a load releasable prussik to lock off the rope (munter-mule to anchor), back up the prussik above the belay device before removing it, then take out the device and re-set up as a redirected belay of your harness, remove the backup from the anchor, take her tight, lock it off on your harness (mule knot again) then use your full body weight to help her out. You may need a long leash from your anchor. You can "reverse batman" the rope (pull yourself down on the climbers side). If setup right you may be able keep the prussik on to use for progress capture, but if you can't reach it to reset it occasionally, you should remove it, in which case back-up the brake strand with some stopper knots, you're gonna be moving around alot once she's moving again and don't want to let go of the brake hand.

edit to add - once the device is out and you're redirected, you can set up a proper 3:1 capturing w/ the top prussik if the "power belay" option doesn't work.

Thanks for the good replies so far. This is a prime example of having something weird happen mid-climb that needs some creativity to keep things moving.

Having aid/hauling experience I went straight to the 3:1 because 1) the crux was short and distance to haul was minimal 2) my knowledge/speed of the rigging would be much faster than hers to set up to ascend and 3) she is light (about 120lbs). Since I had never had to haul while in guide mode I was simply shocked how difficult she was to move at all. The belay space was small so incorporating myself as a weight was a bit awkward but I should have gone to 5:1 (or learn how to do 6:1). I mainly wondered if the main problem was that the guide mode created too much friction to haul effectively. Would it have helped to tie on a ratchet prussic and then rig a sling to hold the reverso "open" and out of guide mode?

Also, has me wondering how many folks out there actually know this self rescue stuff.

You can very quickly add a pile of friction to the haul with the rope just running over a short distance of rock. And yes, a "guide mode" device adds significant friction to the haul.

However it should still be workable. Sometimes if the guide-mode ATC is fully locked up tight, but your second isn't too heavy, you can give an upward pull (up and "out" from the ATC friction slot) on the loaded line at the same time as you haul. This sometimes help initiate things a bit since it can help the rope pop out of a fully locked jam in the ATC slot.

Redirecting the haul line above you to allow for full body weight hauling also helps.

JLP wrote:Go find a dude if you want to climb hard. Pullys and shit are for dorks.

Nice JLP! Serious question gets that for a response from you. You're such an excellent addition to the wonderful hoard of internet hardmen lurking around MP. If you were in my presence right now I'd bow down and lick your toe's in repayment for such a well thought out and accurate opinion.

Or maybe I'd just piss on your face and call you a sexist, judgmental moron with a big mouth.

Take your pick.

JLP wrote:Many here would look forward to meeting you in person, Yarp.

This shit cracks me up. Every time someone on this board makes any one of you little whiney bitches feel the least bit "icky" you resort to calling them by the screen name of someone who's made you feel "icky" in the past but now chooses to remain silent and not waste time arguing with a high class climber such as yourself, JLP.

At this point I've been accused of being Yarp, Dorcey, Killis, Elasnore, and several other's that I can't remember. If you're going to defend being a douche bag by name calling at least figure it out and get the right name.

Way to own your shit though JLP. Carry on with your douchery.

how thick, fuzzy and stiff was the rope ... that could easily be a factor ...

as to hauling ... sometimes you just have to do it because of circumstances ... but in general i agree with the people who say dont bring someone you dont think can do the climb up a multi ... its not the safest and not very considerate of anyone else there may be on the route ...

at the very least, make sure they know how to prussik ... or give them a small ascender ...

Improvised hauling with carabiners rather than pulleys is a self-rescue myth; I'll bet it won't work half the time in the real world. With carabiner efficiency at 67%, you'd get about 1.6:1 out of a theoretical 3:1 set-up, and that doesn't count the substantial additional friction added by using a a guide plate as a capture device, and also assumes absolutely no rock friction. Chances are you had no mechanical advantage at all, and maybe worse than that; the system may have required you to pull with more than the climbers weight.

The higher-mechanical advantage systems suffer rapidly diminishing returns from friction, and at the same time oblige you to pull massive amounts of rope up to move someone.

If you can drop a loop of rope to the climber, you can do a much more effective assisted haul, since the climber can do some of the work.

I wouldn't go so far as to say you shouldn't climb with someone who might not be able to pull the crux, but you definitely shouldn't climb with someone who doesn't know how to get themselves out of trouble, by aiding or prusiking if necessary. Improvised hauling is a low-percentage bet that shouldn't be part of your thinking at all.

JLP wrote: Anonymously hiding from your anonymous name is a level of sacklessness we don't get to see here very often.

Were you looking in a mirror as you typed this, or should I know who you are from your screen name?

More amazing hypocrisy from an MP hardman. I feel blessed.