Braxton and all who actually write about the hardest trad climb in So. AZ, sorry for going off topic... but true to my bottom-feeder nature - I make sure I am not the first and probably not the last one to do so. Still sorry though.

Just want to say that after reading this thread, I finally fully understanding why I love climbing so much. Not just the movement, not just the experience and spiritual growth and etc. But, what other sport can I do the same - go climb routes put up by others, no sweat and no risk of life or limbs (climber's or belayer's) like the FAs getting up rocks with all the loose stuff and dirt etc. Best yet, after climbing, go log-in to mp.com to complain about runouts, loose rocks, no topo, bolted cracks, etc. and then give the route a star rating to make sure that my opinion counts!

Salute to all FAs and... long live the jolly bottom-feeders!!

BTW, which climb is the hardest trad climb in So. AZ again?

jimbo,

"swing and a miss" was my way of saying that i thought you had misinterpreted some of the posts made by me and some other people who have been arguing in favor of respecting natural pro. i don't think any of us are actually worried about chipping and gluing at this point, we were simply trying to make the point that we need to keep our standards up. i didn't want to restate this point since i thought it might usher in another 2-page discussion of a topic we seemed pretty close to being done with so i went with the easiest--albeit not the clearest--response i could think of in a few seconds. so my bad.

also, i can't speak for anyone else but i for one am glad that people like you and eric have put up so many good bolted routes. i don't resent you guys for bolting lines that might take a placement or two--quite the opposite.

EDIT
lamina, you don't want to live in a world where no one is allowed to criticize. whenever that has happened in human history, decay and corruption quickly follow.

Just checked out the thread. I noticed earlier on a few lines were mentioned around Flag. Here's a few more not to miss -

- Lost Horizons .13b - 4 pitches of stemming and thin crack to the left of Shangri -La

- White Riot, .13? - straight out the roof above the second parking lot at Priest Draw, no bolts, no anchors - doesn't get any cleaner than that!

Both are well worth your time!

These discussions are just like the movie "Groundhog Day".

EFR

I feel I have to apologize for beeing vague. Before I clarify, I want to say I don't think any route should be chopped because someone has soloed it. Leaving the rope behind, knowing from the outset you're not going to clip bolts or place gear, knowing bailing is not an option, makes the presents of bolts or gear placements a non-issue.

Part of my point was if a line can be lead gear only, as Sonny Trotter did, then maybe the bolts should be chopped, as Sonny did.

If someone solos a line, you can't erase the natural gear placements that everyone has the option to use, but you can erase the bolts that aren't necessarily needed.

As far as bolt placement, I've been on lines, as i'm sure alot of folks on this site have, that were done ground up, hand drilled on stance. This FA style puts a huge limitation on the number of bolts drilled, increasing the phsycological commitment needed to climb these lines.

AS to the OP, a 5.9 line put up in the afore mentioned style can be pretty F'n hard. What is the definition of "hard". Is it physical or phsycological. I'm sure its a little of both. If you're after the physical aspect and just want to tick grades, stick to sport climbing. Otherwise step up you're commitment level and place gear. I must say, I don't think a bolt hear or there negates the "trad" in trad climbing. I do prefer "adventure climbing" to "trad climbing" though.

I'm not against bolts, just overusage of bolts. I've disscussed this with friends and have heard some say "a bolt every eight feet is reasonable". I think it's entirely unreasonable, just my opinion.

My daughter is buggin the sh1te out of me and have lost my train of thought, so i hope this makes sense.
Shawn

I got you babe...

I just saw this thread regarding hard trad lines. I see Rickd mentions "one the Run" as 12-. I believe it's closer to 12b or even a c if your short. What are people calling it these days?
Also, wondering who installed the bolts higher up on the 1st pitch. Don't believe we used them on the 1st asscent.
Peter

Gashlycrumb Tinies. I'm sure I mispelled this one. Next to Cripple Creek. First pitch is fun 11- and makes a fun alternate to CCreek. Second pitch is 12-?? Second pitch is a classic Mt. Lemmon seam with RP pro and flakey/exfoliating rock. Thought I was going to "buy it" on the 2nd pitch! Would clean-up nicely with more traffic....AND BOLTS!! Hehe

I think The Mule(12b)on Ripple was also pretty trad back in the day with fixed gear added/updated later-on?