All I'm doing is taking an absolutist statement to its logical conclusion. To make the point that it really should be "we should avoid permanently altering the rock as much as REASONABLE". The problem then becomes...what is reasonable ? Good luck on that one.

I should probably bow out of this part of the discussion or someone will get the idea that I have strong feelings about this stuff...I don't.

Reasonable...yeah that's the crux. The problem is everyone has their own idea what that means. And most people's idea changes over time. Often to a more laid-back standard. I was talking to one of the old-timers around here about bolting a route that might interfer with one of his trad routes. I didn't want to create any bad feeling, so I talked to him first. His response ? "Why don't you just bolt my route too ?". I laugh.

I was hoping, someone that knew what they were talking about would respond to my comment about how feasible doing Bashie crack on gear is.

I haven't looked at Bashie in 20 years, so this is a bit foggy, but...

It's very short, thin, slightly flared. Might take a good RP or two but I wouldn't count on it. Any gear placements would probably take away the best handholds so you're likely to get screwed there. Last time I looked it had two or three OLD bolts so you might just consider it a sport climb. It is thin hard half-pad lie-backing with bad feet...nasty. I expect that once you sample it you may lose interest.

but that's a 20 year old memory. Why not just go look ? it's easy to get to.

Ah the old "standards" argument. Who's, yours, mine, Ken Nichols the mad chopper of the east?

There are plenty of trad routes out there already that won't ever be retro bolted, we all know that. So the gloom and doom argument about what's next, "bolting on holds", "chipping every route" is reactionary and silly.
No one is going to add bolts to Jules Verne. But I bet people would still think it's a great route if the first ascensionist had decided to add a few bolts back in the day. And who would have faulted them.

I have always found it interesting that people get so upset about a bolt permanently altering the rock, but a long white chalk streak stretching up to the summit is OK. You ask me, ban chalk and add bolts, then places like Eldo and Devils Tower would look more natural to most observers. But perhaps it's not everyone who uses our resources we are concerned about, just our own. I need chalk but I don't need bolts. Too bad for the casual hiker that may be offended by my chalk lines, but would never even notice the bolts.
Who and what impacts who and what can be a slippery slope in many directions.

My point that people can go put up their own routes in their own style, was really more about me being tired of listening to someone who's never done a new route bitching about how I did a new route.
You don't like it go do your own!! Show me your impeccable style with action not words.

It's kind of like someone who could never make the high school basketball team bitching about how Lebron James played last night.

If you have done a bunch of FA's then I'll gladly discuss your gripes.

I will say Eric and I blew it when we bolted Solar Flare. If his thread generates a consensus to chop, I'll do it ASAP.

If your going to spray paint your initials at the base of a climb be sure to use a color that matches the rock. This is a long and established tradition.

Steve wrote: I was hoping, someone that knew what they were talking about would respond to my comment about how feasible doing Bashie crack on gear is.


Not very...


Also...I think that Fasset guy is gay...but I could be wrong.

Might as well throw this out there: What about removing hardware on something like Golden Beaver. Of course it would have to be done ground up first gear only, blah, blah, blah.

Why take hardware away that exitsted when the first ascent was done. It was pins and now it is bolts. Now the hardware stays bomber as the pins were when first placed. Why should we have to clip marginal pins when the FA party did not?

Brick, is the pin still on New Wave ? I can't remember.

I don't think so Jbak but my hard drive is slowly erasing itself.

Shawn, not sure where you are coming from. You start by saying the thing about Sonny Trotter and now this latest comment after a partial quote of mine. If you are for chopping bolts if the route can be lead clean then we can take all the bolts off of Ridgeline and Munchkinland and almost every other crag in southern Arizona. Because most routes around here could be soloed by someone. That is the cleanest climbing there is. So if you go with Trotters statement, which I cannot confirm he said, then the goal is to get to no fixed gear period, not even anchors. That is a great personal goal if you want to do it but to impose it on everyone by chopping fixed hardware seems silly to me. It is great that there are real tests of courage and ability that see few repeats but it should not be the only flavor out there. Climbing unroped where others use a rope and gear or bolts for protection isn't any less exciting because the hardware is there. If you are climbing with a rope and trying to skip bolts it is a lot easier to bail and is mentally less committing than if the bolts or fixed pin is there. That is why I started the thread about Solar Flare which it look like we are going to chop. So if you want to help PM me and we will include you. One other thing, as has been said, if you want routes of the nature you state, do as Rickd, Dave DeChamps and lot of others have go out and lead them, then post them so we don't bolt over them.

Jon,
By "swing and a miss" I assume you are implying that there are routes around here with bolted and/or glued on holds. Please show me all these routes because I haven't seen them.
Are there some chips holds on a few routes on the Lemmon, yes, but I'll bet most climbers couldn't name most of them.
Why did Mt. Charleston get voted one of the worst crags in the US? Because the whole things a chip and glue job. I guess the old climbing community does a pretty good job of policing itself after all.
This same argument has occurred numerous times throughout my 30 years in the sport and guess what, there hasn't been a proliferation of climbs with holds bolted and glued on. This in spite of the all the "slippery slope" doomsday prophesies.
There really is plenty of room for sport and trad to co-exist and intermingle. The odd bolt next to a crack is really not that big of a deal.
That said Eric and I have admitted that bolting Solar Flare was a mistake and we're going to chop it. Very cleanly and neatly.

BTW, my "bottom feeder" comment was a light hearted jab, I love to see people climbing and enjoying our routes.

I'm sure there's a few more, but the only route on Mt Lemmon I remember seeing glue on is "Primal Sledge" at the Ruins..

"Hebrew Hammer" at Sunspots looks like someone took its namesake to the bottom of the climb, not sure if to remove a flake that would have come off anyway or to create holds?

There are a few routes around the mountain with glue that I have encountered, but there is no point in naming them. A little glue here and there doesn't bother me and the vast majority of routes don't have glue. I don't know why the flake on HH was removed, but having climbed that route I highly doubt it was done to create holds. It probably was a big loose flake. I also think that is not too big of a deal.