This Beth Rodden article has got me wondering...

Why limit the question to Southern Az?

'cause that's where I live. But, you have a good point. Let's change this to 'What's the hardest trad climb in your area?'

Don't know why, but the hardest trad climb in my area always seems to be the one I'm on. (May be 'cause of the hangover, or my lack of training.)

Not a lot of really hard trad around here.
Ma'adim at the Reef comes to mind but it is only 12-
Golden Beaver may have had some bolts added but it was originally 12+ on natural pro and a few fixed pins.
The Stronghold probably has a hard trad route too but most have a some bolts somewhere.

"Teresa" at Klondyke is 12- (20' of stiff off RP's have fun!)

Croft/Noebels "On the Run" on End Dome is 12-

Although not a lead, the crack (aka "Beckey's crack") left of Stilleto in the west stronghold is TR 12+.

"the bet" would be 11+ or more ow roof (but not freed yet it's a.1) behind the start of WML

"Ma adim" is 12-, but short then the Waugh direct finish to "Swept Away" (maybe harder, 12-/12 left hand palming lb off RP's - I followed wag on the FA).

What about Red Dwarf at Sunspots? I haven't climbed it but I think the 5.12 section has no fixed pro.

Thanks for the feedback. To clarify, I mean routes without any fixed pro. Well, maybe a manky old pin, but no fat, shiny stainless steel bolts.

Croft/Noebels has bolts, I put the first couple in and there are more above that. The TR to the left of Stilletto has been lead to the end of the crack by me as I tried to do it ground up. The crack is not harder than 5.11. There is a whole lot of face climbing that will need bolts above. Red Dwarf is 12- trad to the ledge then clips a couple bolts to reach the chains. There is a short crack opposite the Chessapeak Wall that again has 25 feet of trad 12- then a couple of bolts to the anchors.

The ones that I can't redpoint! Oh ya, "Beth Rodden" is Awesome!

efr-

I should have know better about the stilletto crack- it was credited to "Richard Horst".

I never heard where Peter's crux was- I thought the crack down low.

all I know is lead Sensory Desuetude (at a measly 10+R) and you can do anything. I backed off the first pitch when easily 20 feet out looking at the crux onto a marginal nut.
...later, RR (who did the FA) backed off never to return.

the stronghold has lots of those routes

Richard Horst did TR the thing bottom to top. I lead the crack to the end of it took some whippers and decided to come back another time which I still plan to do. It would be cool if it was not a just TR.

I think Golden Beaver may take the prize at 12+. Yes it has a couple of bolts (I'm not even sure if they're 3/8s) but it's plenty trad.

The original New Wave was one or two bolts to reach the crack, and then one fixed pin in the crack. I tried to lead it a couple of times back in the mid-80s before Ray retro-ed it, and it was intense.

I can't believe there aren't more hard trad lines in S. AZ. There is so much potential. I guess the problem is people are just bolting them? I was doing thinly protected 5.12 trad in AZ and CO in the 1980's! I can't believe the standard hasn't been pushed since then. Actually, I hardly climb anymore but I'm still doing 5.12 from my couch. That's just because all of the 5.11's I did back then are getting retro upgraded to 5.12. HA!

Sherman is putting in some nice hard trad lines at Tamo which is only 1.5 hrs from Tucson so it ought to qualify as S. AZ. He's almost 50 now and tends to go for the R/X stuff which will scare some of you children. (Yeah, I'm taunting you to go out and push the standards.)

This week he just put up a new 5.11 called Spinal Tap (because you will get a free one if you fall). He's probably working on another one right now that should go 5.12. Last year we did one called Facial that from the ground you cannot see where you can get any pro. It doesn't matter how physically hard climbs like that are because they are all mental. I'd like to see some of the aspiring trad. climbers take advantage of Tamo. There are many good lines still looking for a first or second ascent. Try Merry X-mas. It's only 5.10+. He he he!

Seriously, I don't think there is anyplace in S. AZ with as much potential for hard trad lines as Tamo. Check it out.

Chris-

You're right about everything being bolted. free climbing off gear has been in decline since Alan Watts started the transition at Smith.

Cochise rock quality limits how hard the cracks can go as bolts "become" necessary at a point. Mt Lemmon is a write off (have drill, will climb). The other consideration is approach as most climbers don't like to hike- and certainly don't like to hike carrying gear.

...Tamo, is NOT southern Arizona you yankee!. It must be south of the Gila River.

I *briefly* mentioned where the hardest routes could be in a past post (there are a few 12's already). It looks like granite mountain, but is narrower and 150' higher. It is steeper, much harder (quartz) rock to drill in and about 2 miles in (road 678....).

Today, if you climb at Chimney Rock you probably enjoy having the entire place to yourself, or at worst have to share it with one other party. Compared/contrasted with what's written here*:

• Thanks to John Baker for this little tidbit of climbing history

The problem with pushing trad standards in So. AZ has been a lack of appropriate lines. Where are the 5.13s that are at least minimally protected ? Golden Beaver is as close as I can come. Maybe there are some gems hidden away in the stronghold somewhere. It's not that the potential trad lines were bolted, they never existed to begin with. If you are willing to solo 5.12+ 30 feet off the deck I suppose Blood Meridian could qualify...the last 10 feet could be protected on gear. If someone does that I will happily chop the bolts. Maybe Ray would be amenable to returning New Wave to its original state. But that would be 12b at the most.

CJD: "almost 50" sounds pretty young to some of us. He's just a kid.

it is possible there are fewer trad climbers today than there were 25 years ago--and honestly who am i to disagree with you guys, i'm pretty new to the sport and i sure wasn't around to see what climbing was like in the 80s, 90s, or even a few years ago--but i believe there are two other factors besides a decreasing number of trad climbers that may explain why chimney rock isn't as popular as it once was.

first, there are a lot more climbing areas on mount lemmon today than there were in the 80s; the number of routes on the mountain in those days was probably only a small fraction of the number of routes on the mountain today, which means that people now have more areas to choose from.

second, with the advent of sport climbing, climbers rarely trad climb when they go cragging; trad climbing today seems to be reserved for multipitch routes. while there are some multipitch routes at chimney rock, most climbers these days tend to head other places for long climbs (i think). and multipitch climbing seems to be as popular as ever.

like i said, i'm pretty new to the sport and it's possible i got it wrong, but there are many times more people climbing these days than there were in the old days and i think all the new sport climbers are simply making it look like trad climbers are decreasing in number.

I have to agree with Jbak, the hard trad lines on the Mt. Lemmon are non-existent. How many hard cracks can you direct me to that have been bolted? Better yet how many can you tell me about that have not been bolted or climbed. We don't have a lot of hard (5.12 and harder) cracks around here. And Rickd the comment (have drill, will climb) is not entirely true. If you have been to either Sunspots or Forgotten Wall there are a number of trad routes that have not been bolted. A few have. But there really are not that many hard crack lines. On the other hand if you consider any climb that takes two or three pieces of pro a trad line then lots have been bolted.

Before 1985 all So AZ climbers were trad climbers...there was no other category. And there weren't very many around. I'd go for weeks without seeing another party on Mt Lemmon. If you did run into someone it was kind of a novelty...you'd stop and chat.

As far as pushing grades, Mt Lemmon rock is such that as you get to higher grades, pro starts disappearing. When I started doing trad 5.11s on Lemmon I felt like I was playing Russian roulette. In Steiger's guide (1985) all the routes above 5.11 are listed as topropes or have a lot of fixed pro...except New Wave which had 3 at most.

If "Climber's" are going to whine about bolt's on some of the harder climb's or easier climb's. Maybe that person should go on more scouting trip's to seek out that rad trad line in S. Az. ( Put up your own damn route and quit whining about it on this site.) Aka Rickd..Just the Fact's! Don't clip the bolt's if you don't like them. How many Folk's complain about bolt's and then go clipping them all weekend? Down climb that hard route and don't use those bolted anchor's at the top.

Well I'd love to spray about how much of a bad-ass I am, but that appears to be overdone in this thread already.

Anyway, there may be slightly harder rated climbs in So AZ, but Over The Rainbow (III 5.12a) on Leviathan has always seemed like a super-stout trad line to me. Anyone here climbed it? Could it be harder overall than Golden Beaver?

FWIW, although there might not be any .13 trad lines in So AZ, all you have to do is drive a few hours north. Red Planet in Sedona is 5.13, and is the hardest trad line I can think of in AZ. Also there is a newer, super-thin 13a R (forget the name) line at the Mission To Mars area, also in Sedona. Further north there is The Equalizer (13a R) at The Forks. Also David said Shangri-La is a really hard .12+, but I think the crux pitch has some bolts.

Is there much desire for a 5.13 crack in Southern AZ?