I've started this thread to focus the topic on Tamo. Please, if you do not want Tamo to happen post that opinion elsewhere. I just think it would be good to have a running list of people who are interested in seeing Tamo become a developed climbing destination and their opinions about what it should include if that happens. If you want to comment on the concept of it being a park or not and associated fees I think that does fit in with this thread. Keep in mind that being a park is suggested primarily because it allows it to be managed explicitly for climbers as the primary user group. Also, if you are interested in a tour this winter say so. Hopefully we can get Sherman back and do some tours. Even if he doesn't I would be willing to at least hike people around to look at the area.

If you have already posted your wants on the other thread please cut and paste them here.

Let's try to keep this positive.

If somebody already said what you were thinking say it anyway that way we can kinda think of them as votes for particular items.

Peace!

New Land Exchange Proposal Introduced Into Congress for Oak Flat, AZ

In early August two bills were introduced into Congress that would transfer Oak Flat—US Forest Service land east of Superior, Arizona—to Resolution Copper Company to develop a massive copper mine. The result of this land exchange would result in the loss of thousands of bouldering problems and roped sport climbs at the popular Oak Flat area. This issue is of longstanding importance to the Access Fund as it would result in the single largest loss of climbing resources ever. For more background, see the Friends of Queen Creek’s website at www.friendsofqueencreek.com and www.accessfund.org/saveoakflat

The proposed law, introduced by US Senators Kyl and McCain in the Senate and US Representative Pastor in the House, now faces scrutiny by the relevant congressional committees that oversee public lands and federal land exchanges. At issue for climbers in the proposed “Southeast Arizona Land Exchange and Conservation Act of 2007” are the following provisions:

The permanent loss of bouldering and roped climbing at Oak Flat, although the Access Fund last year obtained a recreational use license to continue climbing at Queen Creek Canyon and Oak Flat up to five years following the land exchange if it passes. See www.accessfund.org/display/page/PR/40

If the bill does become law the climbing sites at Oak Flat known as the ‘‘Mine Area’’ and ‘‘Euro Dog Valley’’ will be closed to public use immediately; however, the bill provides for continued public access to most of the Oak Flat area for two years after enactment.

The establishment of a new state park for climbing to “replace” what’s lost at Oak Flat. This area is, unlike Oak Flat, primarily roped climbing, further from Phoenix, and will cost climbers an entry fee. A state law http://law.justia.com/arizona/codes/title41/00511-16.html already authorizing the new state park, but the proposed 2-wheel drive access road remains a question mark in terms of construction and funding.

This land exchange must now overcome renewed opposition by local Apaches and citizens groups www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/93851 a new Congress generally more critical of land exchanges. The Access Fund will continue to work with Congress to ensure that the interests of climbers are represented in this proposed law.

For more information about the licensed climbing in Queen Creek Canyon and what’s at stake for Oak Flat, contact jason@accessfund.org.

In attempt to Save Oak Flats I want to ask for a S%$# Ton, so RCC doesn't get it. But if they do We should get a whole lot of compensation. This is only a start.

I'll Start -

1. I want the new state park paid for free and clear for the duration of mining activity. We paid pennies for access to Oak Flats we should pay pennies for Tamo. (Pennies being tax dollars, which I assume was just the Campground host, and maintenance of the Bathroom. The roads haven't been kept up forever.) However this new park must have scheduled road maintenance, paid by RCC) as well as all other amenities. Parking for day use at Highway 177 and parking at the top. Parking at 177 so people can car pool up, and minimize parking impacts on top. If it is to be a State Park it my require a good amount of parking space. This should be researched and accommodated for.

2. Running Water - (Potable) Not necessary but a pain. (They can drill a well, if they can drill 7000ft)

3. Room for festivals and parties, lot's of room. On the scale Oakflats once was.

4. Designated, and maintained trails to all the bouldering that is rumored to be around, as well as areas to park.

5. Guaranteed Access to Atlantis, the Leap, Upper/Lower Devils, the Pond, and any areas of Oak Flats not effected.

6. I second the Beer Garden

7. Everything the Governor has stated in her letter.

8. I think, throwing in the Homestead is not a bad idea either. At least have them grade the steep section of the road in a more gradual manner that it can be accessible by 2WD vehicles. As I feel TAMO JUST STILL AIN"T ENOUGH.

9. An Area to launch paragliders (It would be cool)

10. Possible a back road to the Drip, Accessed from above.

That's a good start Bob.

I see Kenneth does not want to play nice.

Here's what I want:

I like the State Park concept for the reason above.

A good road paved or 2wd dirt.

It needs to go close to the main areas so there isn't a long hike.

Well planned/built/marked trails to each area with plenty of trailhead parking.

Cheap ($5-$10, weekly rates?) Camping with picnic tables, fire rings, and raised tent platforms. Sites should be semi-private not parkinglot RV style.

Flush toilets would be nice.

Several camping areas near the main areas for easy access without having to fire up the car.

No RV's running generators.

No fancy visitor center but an info center in Kearney.

I'm OK with a minimal entrance fee of $2-$5 as long as it supports services in the park. Annual passes of say $25.

Developed bouldering landing areas. That is leveled ground where practical and trimed trees.

Free day use parking everywhere.

A main campground with a Camp 4 style workout circut including slack lines for CHill.

A kids bouldering area.

A volunteer corp for: campground and trail maintenance, campground host, climbing ranger/host (to hike around and educate visitors and identify problems) Volunteers would get fee waivers.

Leashed and controlled pets allowed.

No Peregrine or other "endangered" species closures EVER!

A climb named "Git-er-Dunn"

Ian,

I wasn't thinking of additional areas on this thread as you mentioned from your pasted text but lets go ahead and consider that a fair item here too.

So I'll add my support for more than just Tamo.

Also, I think Sherman should be allowed to "retire" on the park property and run Verm's Beer and Gear.

• Pet clean up station like in Red Rocks.

• Doing our part to stay green..... recycling trash centers/cans like in J-Tree.

• Emergency Basket/Litters at the various key areas. Like Owens River Gorge.

• An area named Mussypotamia or at a mimimum Thimblenation

A bit redundant I know, but you asked for it Chris. I think these are all great ideas and a very good start.

Running Water - (Potable) Not necessary but a pain. (They can drill a well, if they can drill 7000ft)

Room for festivals and parties, lot's of room. On the scale Oakflats once was.

Designated, and maintained trails to all the bouldering that is rumored to be around, as well as areas to park.

Guaranteed Access to Atlantis, the Leap, Upper/Lower Devils, the Pond, and any areas of Oak Flats not effected.

I second the Beer Garden I'LL THIRD THAT


I think, throwing in the Homestead is not a bad idea either. At least have them grade the steep section of the road in a more gradual manner that it can be accessible by 2WD vehicles. As I feel TAMO JUST STILL AIN"T ENOUGH.

An Area to launch paragliders (It would be cool)

Possible a back road to the Drip, Accessed from above.

A good road paved or 2wd dirt.

It needs to go close to the main areas so there isn't a long hike.

Well planned/built/marked trails to each area with plenty of trailhead parking.

Cheap ($5-$10, weekly rates?) Camping with picnic tables, fire rings, and raised tent platforms. Sites should be semi-private not parkinglot RV style.

Flush toilets would be nice.

Several camping areas near the main areas for easy access without having to fire up the car.

No RV's running generators.

No fancy visitor center but an info center in Kearney.

I'm OK with a minimal entrance fee of $2-$5 as long as it supports services in the park. Annual passes of say $25.

Developed bouldering landing areas. That is leveled ground where practical and trimed trees.

Free day use parking everywhere.

A main campground with a Camp 4 style workout circut including slack lines for CHill.

A kids bouldering area.

A volunteer corp for: campground and trail maintenance, campground host, climbing ranger/host (to hike around and educate visitors and identify problems) Volunteers would get fee waivers.

Leashed and controlled pets allowed.

No Peregrine or other "endangered" species closures EVER!

A climb named "Git-er-Dunn"

Pet clean up station like in Red Rocks.


Doing our part to stay green..... recycling trash centers/cans like in J-Tree.


Emergency Basket/Litters at the various key areas. Like Owens River Gorge.


An area named Mussypotamia or at a mimimum Thimblenation

I want a tour........seriously.

Good brainstorming, keep it up.

Fred

Tamo specific:

All vehicle, paved, all weather access road, at least 2 lane with very wide bike lanes, turnouts with trail/road access for hiking/biking along the way. (an 8-10 mile road going up 2,000' should make a nice ride down and back up for a warm up in the morning)

Running water/toilets, hot showers for the kids/spouses/climbers, RV areas, Horse camping area.

High speed internet, wi-fi, cell, etc. Cell tower obscured/hidden.

Electricity at each camp area. 110/220. No overhead lines at all along the road, in the park, or along the path where the power comes in. Transformer/electrical conversion equipment isolated and out of view. Same for all plumbing and other utilities.

Next to no area lighting.

Astronomical viewing area.

Improved trail system for bikes, people, horses.

Climbing/camping/food store/gathering place with shaded eating areas.

Name the place "Tam O'Shanter State Park" to align with how the main user group knows the place and to honor the geographic feature looming overhead. (That's a cool looking summit)

Camping near climbing so that vehicle movement is minimized.

Multiple kids play areas, swings, etc.

An open management policy that allows for new routes on an ongoing basis. Future climbers will always come up with new things. Citizen's Climbing Management Board that attends to such.

Minimal management, minimal management housing, obscured and distant from the climbing/camping areas. Keep It Simple . . .

Fred

fun climbs.
adequately address conservation & sanitation.
adequate shelters from the monsoons.

free passes to play the links at papago; used to be my summer fitness - 2.5-3 rounds walking (no sissy-cart); can you hang?!? If not, then a route named ocotillo.

an ice cream stand.

Try walking 2-3 rounds here in the summer, you'll die! Looks like a new course is being built in the west Stronghold, good topic for a new thread.
BTW, say what you want about John Sherman, he's a pretty good ball striker!
Oh yeah, ACCESS!
JF

Jeff - that was in walking in Phx -- after pouring concrete all week for a bunch of ADOT bridges; gets a little warm at 118.


& I want signage: In Case of Flooding, Climb to Safety

I led Rosetta Rose at Pinnacle Peak in 1986 or 1987 with Jim Waugh...it was 108 degrees on that day in early May. I don't how you guys stand that heat in the summer months.


Jeff...how are you, hope all is well?

Mark,

You are quite the hardman, these young flat bellies got nothin on you! However, I blasted a 7 iron of the top of Hitchcock Pinnacle, I'm guessing over 250 yds. No cart!

Bob,
Call me, you filthy maggot!

JF

No way you hit a 7 iron 250 yards. A 4 iron maybe if the wind was blowing in the same direction.

Shawn,
Shut up scum!

Jimbo,

You haven't seen my thunder, plus, I hit it across the overlook, don't forget the carry with the elevated tee box. Probably would have gone farther if it wasn't one of those "enviro balls".

hope all is well,

JF

GOLFERS - No offense, I can enjoy friendly banter, but this thread was set up for a reason, to be a tool for people to brainstorm ideas for the replacement area for Queen Creek. It's a large issue, and people fee strongly about it.

If you have some input, please feel free to add it but if not, please find another golf course.

I hope you understand.

Thank you

A tour would be great. It would give us a chance to form intelligent opinions.

I think that RCC should be required to build a golf course at Tamo!
They owe it to "us". Paved trails and golf carts to the base of climbs too. That way all the woofter climbers can golf, look at climbs and spray their stories about how they use to be warriors!

Lets have lots of rules, fees and a clubhouse too! We deserve it.

Edit/add: My sarcasm above reflects my view that RCC would be better off putting resources into the development of new mining technology that does not harm Oak Flat as opposed to getting different special interests to buy off on their hurried (though delayed) swap plan. That process sets groups into a tizzy and at odds. The promise of money engenders bizarre behavior.

Ian,

No offence, you all should be writing letters to your state representatives to make sure tamo happens as promised instead of wasting your resources on this forum.

JF

Jeff wrote: Bob,
Call me, you filthy maggot!

JF


Fleck-off you one-eyed poor excuse for a human being.




Will do tomorrow.

Well, you duffers are in luck. There is an area at Tamo called "The Greens" where the climbs have golf related names. I have one I need to go finish that will be called "The Gopher".

Oh those nice people at RCC, and it's christmas!
-I want a pony
-and an alpine slide
-and free candy & bubble gum
-and automated rag-time band with a squirrel that plays the banjo!

I don't care what those big important men want with that silly Queen Creek place, I want an pony. As long as they give me a pony, they can have all the silly copper they want.