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Tucson Bouldering - issues and ideas

Original Post
Joe Kreidel · · San Antonio, TX · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 1,495

There has been some good and interesting discussion taking place in the Comments section for the Matterhorn Boulder, and I thought we could use a thread to continue the discussion and flesh out some of the ideas being tossed around. Hopefully we can agree on a few things, and maybe it will lead to some improvement in the bouldering community and our bouldering areas. It seems right now there are a bunch of us excited and concerned about our local boulders. And with temps about to be really good for bouldering, now might be a good time to have this discussion.

First, we need to remember that Tucson has a long history of bouldering, and respect that history and those that bouldered before us, before sticky rubber, before pads, etc. We especially need to be real careful about when and where we claim FA's, as most everything around Tucson has been scouted and probably climbed before. I have seen a couple of instances here on MP.com of people claiming FA's for problems that were certainly climbed before. When entering problems in the MP.com database, the standard entry for "FA:" should probably be "Probably Bob Murray" (I don't really care for those little smilies, but that is kind of a joke...but also pretty true). If you think it really might be an FA, you'd probably be safest putting your name with a couple of question marks. This isn't to say that FA's aren't still to be had, and not to discourage exploration. But Murray hounded the canyons and gullies around Tucson for four years (climbing stronger than most of us now!), and much more has been forgotten about than documented.

I think the biggest issue that needs to be resolved is the naming of problems. Communication is constantly a struggle when talking about bouldering in Tucson. Even at our most utilized area, Gates Pass, there is only one problem with a recognized name (Broken Rubber). It gets a little frustrating trying to share your excitement about cool problems with people when the only way to describe problems is by saying - "you know, that v3ish crimpy problem next to the arete on the uphill boulder....no, no, the other boulder, with the traverse on the back....". It seems that most things established back in the day weren't given names, and those that were named have long been forgotten. Personally, I feel we should start naming the unnamed problems, but as we do this make sure it is recognized that these aren't names from the FA'ist, but more of a "community" name to facilitate communication. For example, Matt Fowls recently added a problem on the Matterhorn Boulder to the database that had previously been unnamed, but he named it Big Bad Wolf. After it prompted some questions, he removed the name. But I feel he made a valid decision, and the name should remain. Matt and I have also added a couple of areas to the database the last few days, adding OUR names to the problems, since names have never been assigned or remembered. I have emailed two people I would consider "representatives" of the Bob Murray era, and both were fine with the idea of retro-naming problems. Anyone have strong opinions about this either way?

In any of the cases of us assigning names to problems, if anyone who has climbed them before and gave them names when discussing the climbs, please let me know and I'll change it. Even if you weren't the FA'ist, if you were using names for any of these problems before us, that name should be recognized.

As for grades, I'm not big into debating or worrying to much about grades, but as we attempt to assign v-grades to older problems, let's keep in mind that Tucson ratings have typically leaned toward the stiff side. Not a bad way to keep doing things, in my view.

One thing I think would help get people more excited about our local bouldering is if we did a better job of adding problems and pictures to the route database, as an additional resource (along with the mcMillen guide) for finding updated info about areas. Most people are of the opinion that there is no good bouldering in Tucson, and while Tucson is far from world class, we have plenty of great little areas that that rarely get touched. One thing that probably contributes to the perception is when people look at the route database for Mt Lemmon, there are 900+ routes listed, and just a handful of problems (thanks to those that have been adding lots of good bouldering info lately). Not to overstate the importance of MP.com in all this, but at least in the Tucson area most climbers I know use it regularly for info on routes, and it could be the same for boulders. Just having pictures of some of the areas that most people aren't aware of would go a long way to getting people psyched to go outside.

That's enough for now, but I really just hope to start a discussion in one easy to view spot, instead of spread out throughout the Comment section of various problems. Feel free to share any ideas or opinions on things unrelated to what I brought up. I hope we can revive a bit of community among local boulderers, and make our boulders a better resource for the community.

Matt Fowls · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 2,290

it has been awesome to see the number of boulder problems in the MP database increase at such a high rate in the past couple weeks. while we definitely are far from having 'world class areas'--as joe said--there is a lot of fun to be had at the areas we do have.

as joe said, there is a definite lack of reference points when referring to boulder problems in tucson. if sparking interest in our local areas is something we hold important as locals, then this is surely a reality that must change. given the nature of the history of tucson bouldering and the prestigious reputation of THE bob, i do not think that naming unnamed problems would take any credit away from the original FA'ist. perhaps i am in no place to make such a claim, but i do think that naming these problems might actually give due respect to Tucson's history in that it will yield an increase of interest. through hearsay, it is hard to get psyched on a 'cool' problem that carries the name of 'unnamed variation,' etc..

as far as FA's go in the way of Tucson bouldering, it is probably best to leave it unmarked for the time being, and inquire on mountainproject/at rocks and ropes/anywhere that seems to be a credible source of knowledge. it is quite possible that some of the problems in washes have not been done, as many natural processes take their courses over the years to wash away feet of sand to uncover new sections (or entirely new) boulders, however it is also quite possible that bob murray's treks around tucson could have contained the very boulders of concern.

as can be felt, the weather is COOLING OFF. accompanying the change of seasons is the transition from climbing at higher elevations to that at lower elevations. many of the washes lower on the mountain (such as the hairpin turn, molino basin, sabino canyon, etc.) contain concentrated amounts of boulders (concentrated, of course being a term relative to the context of tucson bouldering--think a small collection of boulders at most). hopefully we can spark enough interest amongst one another to get psyched and get outside to go bouldering. it's completely obvious that there are enough roped climbs on mount lemmon to fill multiple areas elsewhere, so it could prove productive to invest more effort/time into the bouldering scene (trailwork, topos, exploration, cleaning, and of course, CLIMBING). who knows? maybe we'll pull through and get some great new areas/problems out of it.

iancevans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 50

Retro-naming: Joe, I like the phrase "retro-naming." Retro-naming problems is a good idea where no name exists (or can be found).

Grades: grading boulder problems using the V-scale on Lemmon is difficult because the classic Lemmon problems don't have consensus V-grades. This means that when grading a new problem, there are no Mt Lemmon reference points ("well it's easier than BLANK, the standard Lemmon V7"). Since that is the situation, I think using Hueco standards as the baseline is a good way to at least get a reference point (it's where the V-scale originated and most Tucson boulderers have some experience at Hueco). Not too big of a deal, though, since grades sort themselves out through the consensus process.

FAs: I think we should just use common sense here. If you had to break off a lot of choss before the line appeared, it probably hasn't been done before and you're safe to claim the FA. Definitely ask around, but give yourself a bit of credit in the meantime--you spotted the line, cleaned it, worked out the beta, etc. Similarly, if a problem is of a very "modern" style (lowball roof, say) in a mostly undeveloped area it's likely not been climbed. I expressed worries about Hammer of Hate and Wu-Tang Sword to Joe and he claimed plausibly that those would not have looked like problems to boulderers of the Bob Murray generation. Otherwise, Bob Murray & Co. probably climbed it.

History is important, but it's not sacrosanct. It should be used as a carrot to motivate climbing and development, not as a stick to intimidate younger climbers.

What would you guys think of getting a website together for Tucson bouldering? I can do coding and design if others can help with content. Or is it best to just keep it all on MP?

Matt Fowls · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 2,290

i think that arizonabouldering.com intended to do something like that on a statewide level. in my own experience with that site, it doesnt seem too user friendly. it would be a good idea to get a site going!

climber pat · · Las Cruces NM · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 286

I think you should do whatever research you can looking for previous first ascents. If you cannot find anything then claim the FA for yourself. If at some later time you learn that it is not a FA, be gracious and give the credit to whoever actually did if first.

I would prefer that the bouldering problem be posted on MP so I don't have to look all over the web to find.

emmet · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 0

Is the "Green Galleon Boulder" the old B. Murray "Zschiesche Boulder"?
From Steiger and repeated in McMillen:
"From the pullout at mp 15.1, walk 100 feet up the road to the first gulley on the left, and follow it to a conspicuous, 15 foot tall boulder on the ridgetop. Several problems are found on its overhanging north and west faces, the most difficult being the arete between the two faces. Fun climbing on big holds."

Matt Fowls · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 2,290

you are probably right about the Zschiesche Boulder. thanks for your info! will change the name, etc. right now.

what i wonder is whether or not the milemarker refers to pre-construction or post. before the construction, the milemarker to approach middle earth, the helmet, and this boulder was 15.4. now it is at 15. if the guide was written in the context of the old milemarkers, then the Zschiesche Boulder is somewhere else. if it is up to date in light of the construction, then this is definitely the Zschiesche Boulder.

the boulder itself needed A LOT of cleaning (holds breaking EVERYWHERE; literally a big layer of choss covering the entire bottom half of some of the climbs), so that was what caused me to think it was unclimbed.

Chris Prewitt · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 2,585

Joe, really glad to see you take the ball on this discussion. We do have tons of bouldering in the Tucson area, now we might be able to put it all in one place. As far as FA's and names it seems like a general consensus is forming: If you really had to work to find it, claim it otherwise leave it blank. Name problems that go into the database but be willing to change the name if necessary.

Matt, you should change the name of "unnammed variation" back to Big Bad Wolf. And now we've gone full-circle.

As far as new areas go there is still a lot of developing to do. Hohokam Rd, Golden Gate Mtn, White Stallion Ranch, (all in the Tucson Mts) are all areas that have very nice looking boulders that haven't been climbed(?). There is another HUGE boulder field north of Catalina SP east of Equestrian Trail Rd along the 50 Year Trail. Something like 2 sq/mi of boulders upon boulders.

Some of these areas may have access issues to investigate, but most are on public land.

Joe Kreidel · · San Antonio, TX · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 1,495

roache emmet -

I think you are correct, and it looks like Matt has updated the page. I was hoping that by starting to post things up in the database and put names on things, that people with info, history and names might start chiming in, so thanks for posting up.

Matt - thanks for making the update.

jbak x · · tucson, az · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,601

Zschiesche's Boulder is definitely the one that is south along the ridge from the Helmet approach.

Chris - The Tucson mountains were very thoroughly scoped by Murray (and Gault and G Smith and me). If it's made of stone, he looked at it.

Surprised that no one has posted up the Amphitheatre Boulder yet.

Matt Fowls · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 2,290

john,

thanks for the confirmation. i have updated the page accordingly

Trey Lewis · · Glendale, Az · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 2,959

This is rad!!! I'm reading a bunch of different names of boulders. I like the idea of more people posting more Tucson bouldering areas. I Love finding virgin boulders and areas. I'm useually out there...cleaning a random boulder...all alone. So it's nice to start finding out that I'm not the only climber still "Hugging the Pebbles" (as I've heard some climbers call it). SO LETS CLIMB YO!!!!! (nudge nudge wink wink) Maybe someday Tucson will have is own "*Tucson Bouldering*" link on MP.com.

Bigbad WOLF Anderson · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 580

besides the Tucson bouldering guide that was released a few years back is there any other books/topo guides to tucsons bouldering ? or is it just by word of mouth?

Matt Fowls · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 2,290

trey, youre not the only one 'scrubbing stuff' out there, however it is more than likely that it has been climbed before by bob murray and his crowd. yes, there is potential for new stuff, however i am not sure that it lies in areas so close to the road (rose canyon entrance, etc.). you should post these 'virgin areas' of yours, and see what the other people have to say. maybe they can either confirm that they are new, or not.

it is more than possible that they are new, and it would be sick to get people out to them! like you said, its great to see people getting psyched!

Paul Davidson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 607

You young lads need to drag JB out to the Tucson mountains and have him show you around a bit. Like he said, Bob, Frank, John (both) and Mr. Smith did a fair amount out there. I remember Frank being fairly rabid about the area because I think he was able to get to a rock or two before Bob did :-) (a rare event)

Is Frank still around ? Seems like I heard he'd moved out to the sticks ?

Chris Prewitt · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 2,585

First of all, get familiar with BingMaps. Use the Bird's Eye feature and prepare to have your mind blown! Most of the Tucson Mts are visible this way, allowing for great armchair exploring. Using this I have seen some good stuff, most likely already touched by guys over 20 years ago.

The Tucson Mts have some of the coolest rock in the area for bouldering, and given the amount that I've seen it should be a great place to spend the winter. At Hohokam Rd in Saguaro NP there are about a half dozen boulders close to the "chuck" Norris Trail, with a few more up the road. One of these is beyond beautiful. There is no doubt that Murray saw it, but the lines we looked at still had very crumbly edges that made me think he might have moved on to something else.
White Stallion Ranch (just south of Silverbells)has what I think could be some of the best bouldering area in town. It sounds like John has looked at this stuff so correct me if I'm wrong. Great boulders of good size, good landings and a flat walk to get to em. The problem is that the ranch is for guests only. Back in Arkansas there is a place called Horseshoe Canyon Ranch that is a guest ranch also. They charge climbers $5/day to climb and have made it a destination. Not saying that this is a destination bouldering area, but someone with good PR skills could possibly talk them into letting some of us check out the potential.
Golden Gate Mountain looks interesting. At the bottom of the hill at Gates pass hike up the main trail into and over the pass. You should be able to see several large boulders off to the left in the distance. Another way, and shorter walk, would be to drive through Tucson Estates to the back of the neighborhood and park at a trailhead, which should then be about a 20min walk.

It seems that most of us agree that due to Bob's supernatural omnipresence nothing within a 40 mi radius is "undiscovered". That said, there is a boatload of rock to clean up and climb...again.

jbak x · · tucson, az · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,601

Chris... the Panther boulders look pretty nice. I've never been there, so you better take me. How are the nearby cliff faces ? They don't look bad. That Bingmaps birdseye thing is pretty cool, wish they had it for all of So AZ.

Chris Prewitt · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 2,585

The cliffs look like they'd have some ok routes of good length. Mostly vertical, not as much overhanging as I'd have guessed. Crazy rock though. The approach to the cliffs is around an hour. Yeah, a long way to go for that kind of thing.

Just stopped by the boulders out at Hohokam Rd/Chuck Norris Trail and found a bit of new chalk. Neat. Also saw lines that Murray, et al. must have worked (old broken flakes). A heads up to anyone going out that way: the ground is covered with cryptobiotic soil so be extra delicate with where you walk. Find a game trail, wash, or boulders to hop across to get around.

Trey Lewis · · Glendale, Az · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 2,959

I know that Bob and many others have climbed all over Tucson and the surrounding areas, but to think that every line has been done before is just silly. Not everyone who has climbed in a given area sees boulders/lines in the same way. I'm sure that even Bob Murray didn't climb every line possible. Even in an area close to the road, like The Mattahorn or Rose Canyon Entrance Boulders. Sure the Obvious lines (and I'm sure some of the less obvious lines) probably were sent already. But the inconspicuous lines too? The ones where the holds or/and problem aren't really even visible until you scrub them? The ones where the holds break when you pull on them leaving the holds that are now the problem? I think, if you really feel that it is an unclimbed line, call it an FA. And, like Pat said, if at some later time you learn that it is not a FA, be gracious and give the credit to whoever actually did if first.

Brent Silvester · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 135

Rick D, it's there, probably at Panther Peak. As Chris said, these things (when cleaned) will provide the highest concentration of bouldering that I have seen in the Tucson Area. Imagine the peanut boulders, but much bigger, and every boulder has 10-20 problems ranging from V super easy to V fricking hard. If the rock holds up, and the trail improved, there is no doubt in my mind that this will be the new 'hot spot'. The hike sucks, but you'd be able to get it down to about thirty minutes, and you would be able to boulder there all day! Then go back again, and climb all the stuff you didn't get to the first time. There is so much rock here that if we all met up and went out there a few times, we'd all be working on seperate problems for a long time.

If you mountain bike, go do the 50year trail, both the lower and upper loops, and try not to drool. Big ol boulders out there too. However, there would be a lot more fishing around to find good ones.

One note on the hike to Panther Peak. In one of Chris's pictures, you'll see my dog Jackson. And you'd think, 'man, the hike can't be too bad, a dog made it'. But the reality of it is that you have to pass through cholla feilds and lots of lose sharp rock. Both of our dogs ended up with so much cholla in their pads that they had blisters on them for almost a month. So I would recommend leaving the dogs at home for this area.

Chris Prewitt · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 2,585

50 Year Trail = too much rock. Nobody needs 4 square miles of concentrated blocks.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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