Solar Flare was set up and bolted with Jim and I thinking it only had a couple of good placements for gear. After leading it we looked a little closer and decided it probably could be lead on gear which I did a few weeks later. It turns out the gear is really good so we were not sure what to do and left it as is. This weekend a guy from Spain lead it on gear (onsight) and was totally thrilled. The bolts didn't bother him at all. We don't care either way. Will happily remove the bolts if people want them gone or we can leave it as is and folks can enjoy it either way.

So Vote! Chop or don't chop.

I don't know the route so this is just a blind opinion. Personally I would rather see bolts with hangers than just studs...If you are going to leave in metal at least make it good. That said you will probably recieve a lot more flack for having a bolted route that goes with natural gear than a route you bolted then cleaned up once you figured out it goes.

These are some of the tough questions in climbing, to have a route that may be bold but not frequently climbed or a safe route that get's climbed often but also occasionally get's ridiculed for it's protection. Best of luck with figuring it out, hopefully some other people familiar with the area will chime in.

Sounds like a good case for chopping your own bolts. Go for it.

I think the bolts should go. I did the route with the bolts and really enjoyed it. Challenging, good moves, great rock and apparently good gear. I don't know if I would have jumped on that thing at the end of a day if there weren't several fat bolts.

There are two reasons why I think they should go nevertheless. The first is to set an example on Lemmon. There are some horror shows on Lemmon, but when a new route goes on good gear it should be saved. Lemmon could use more modern-trad routes on solid rock. The second is that the route would be a 5.11 trad testpiece on Lemmon. It is a super line for Lemmon on gear, but just one of many as a sport climb.

Once again; I clipped all the bolts and didn't even notice too many placements, but when I recover from injury, I wouldn't mind seeing it clean so that I might try it the way it should be done.

I agree with Erik's points and I also vote for a chop. I led this using the bolts. It was fun that way, but I think it would be classic without them. The anchors should still be there, but I am sure you planned on keeping them anyway. Thanks for letting us vote.

Hmmmm, sounds like a cautionary tale. . .

Chop Em!

EM has a great point here. With all of the routes that have gone up here over the years with questionable gear, shouldn't something new with quality protection be embraced for that? If this route is as good as some are saying, then you shouldn't have to worry about people going out there to climbing it. Let the climbing speak for itself, not the ease of ascent.
I haven't climbed it yet. Honestly, I will now probably wait until it get's chopped, so I am able to have a more pure experience. To those who justify bolting gear placements by saying "well, you don't have to use the bolts" I say it is not the same. I've led without bolts, I've copped out and clipped 'em, and other times have sent clean. The climbs would be completely different without them.
My vote is to chop this one. Hopefully it will start a new trend. Then again what do I know, I'm just a "bottom feeder". Thanks Jimbo.

In another universe where my opinion had any validity (ipso es I climbed anywhere close to 5.11 trad),I'd say chop 'em.

Hopefully I get to lead it on the bolts first! What can I say, I'm the only sport wimp here! I do understand though. And will be happy to follow it on trad... maybe I will lead trad above 5.9 one day!

So I'll go ahead and stick my neck out... I vote don't chop.

Chop.

Chop.

Eric, thanks for putting this out there to the community and being willing to go back and remove the bolts. It's appreciated.

The chop is appropriate for this route, but will also hopefully reverse a bit of a trend on Mt. Lemmon of bolts near gear placements. Not necesssarily your routes Eric, I'm just saying in general.

p.s. my fence fell over.

Chop.

If the climb protects well and isn't of an elite grade, I am of the opinion it should be void of bolts. A pure sport climber could always put up White Dwarf to climb Solar Flare on TR. I say this as a moderate sport climber who will likely never be putting up traditional 11s.

By the way, thanks to you and the rest for putting up Sun Spots and Forgotten Wall. I visited each a couple of times this winter.

Chop.

Chop.

Agreed with Erik: A bold and classic trad line has more value for Lemmon than a sport climb.

If they're already there, what's the harm in leaving them?

I think we sometimes do occasionally put bolts in a few more places than needed. Sometimes when we go after a new route our bold nature gets a bit overlooked . A bold route is as sweet as a bolt route .

Eric,

Thanks for putting this thread up. It's great to see a prominent first ascentionist taking into account the opinion of the climbing community.

My vote: chop. The climb is terrific and has solid gear. Removal of the bolts will make this climb a classic trad testpiece. There are dozens of quality sport routes on Lemmon at this grade, but only a few trad lines like Solar Flare.

Thanks for the input. I agree that a trad route with good pro is more important to the Lemmon than another 5.11 sport route. I also think that a good gear route is much more memorable than another clip up. So unless the numbers change a lot Jim and I will remove the steel. As I said earlier we botched the job by not looking closely enough to see if it would reasonably go on gear. Since it does we don't mind fixing it. We would have sooner but we put a lot of bolts in so it is hard to get motivated to take them out. Thanks again for the input. EFR

First of all I think we should all remember that this is just a chunk of rock up the hill from the road. Albeit it is a chunk of rock with a really nice line on it, but let's face it, it certainly isn't a critical component of survival of the human species.

With that in perspective I really believe it is up to the first ascentionists (Jim and Eric) to decided on this matter. I find it to be in incredibly good form that they are asking the climbing community (that's us) what we think on the matter. However with everything in life there are many different opinions, and as it always has been with bolting there are some strong ones. You never will please everyone, and there is always going to be at least one yahoo complaining. At the end of the day I think that the choice should come down to what Eric and Jim feel they want to leave as a climb - or as I it see a work of artistic expression.

I think it is a great line, with or without bolts - although I have yet to attempt the without part. It's on my list to do on gear - which will be an easy decision if they decide to chop.

The only consideration that I think is truly important in this manner is that if the bolts are chopped that the rock not be damaged. I know that Eric and Jim are pros at this, so I really don't have any worries. I have however seen the brutal removal of bolts (over bolting wars) leave huge scars in the rock. In that case I would rather see the bolts than what looks like gunshots damage to the rock.

Thanks to Jim and Eric for putting up this great climb, and for being gracious in listening to others opinions on this matter.

Chop

No worries Eric, there will be no sign that the climb ever had bolts on it when were done.
In fact as everyone leads the route they should take time to see if they can spot the bolt holes. Should make the lead a bit more interesting and a bit more pumpy.

As an absolute outsider with no dog in this fight at all, I'd like to make a point; just for conversation. What if an adept soloist came through and rattled off a bunch of solo's on whatever bolted routes you have down there. Then, he/she demands that all these routes be chopped because he/she has done the routes in a purer style. The logic being put forth here extends to this possible scenario.

You know, this has been stated probably a thousand times before, but just because bolts are there doesn't mean you have to clip them. Seems to me a all-trad ascent bypassing the bolts might even have additional personal significance. And in the meantime, people who may never have the ability to pass over that section of stone without the bolts are still able to.

This all just seems a little exclusionary. And kind of macabre too.
Just an opinion from afar.