'Sup Curt,

You know that there was only one video camera at your now famous "visit" to Tamo. Don't exaggerate to make it seem like some kind of PR set up. I'm sure if you would have asked nicely, Sherman would not have filmed you guys, but your visit was clearly hostile from the moment you stepped out of the helicopter. Your minds wern't open when you got there and you know it. There were no "cameras rolling" when you got out of the helicoptor and informed us you "didn't bring any" climbing gear.

Sherman and myself were expecting you guys to come up that day specifically to climb. Climbing is the common ground we all share in this mess. Aren't you guys supposed to be climbers? After all, how can you tell the quality of an climbing area without actually climbing there? I personally spent several hours hiking in extra gear in case you guys wanted to do a trad climb, and we selected some top quality routes (classic 5.9s and 5.10s) for you to do. I guess Andy forgot to tell us that you guys weren't actually interested in climbing. I don't think anyone else who has EVER visited Tamo, didn't want to climb, let alone REFUSED to do so.

Personally I was shocked at you and JK's behavior, and I know Sherman was a little insulted. It was like you went to a resturant to do a review on it, looked around and informed the chef you weren't going to eat anything, but you were still going to give it a bad review.

I'm not sure what agenda of ours you're referring to but during this entire project we have been subject to lies, slander and abuse directly and indirectly from you and the Access Fund.

My goal in participating in this discussion is to try to encourage support for the Tamo project. At the moment Tamo is tied directly to the land exchange as compensation for the loss of Oak Flat. I know that you believe this weakens the position of FOQC, but that is because your position is weak, not because of the existance of Tamo.

Do what you must to save Oak Flat, but don't attack us, we're the back up plan in case you fail.

Folks,

Let's all lay down the weaponry and hurt of the past and gather beneath an umbrella of common cause and move on united.

It's a new day and there are many opportunities before us.

Fred

Damn it!!! We were doing good again and now the personalities are flying.
Please stop!!! We get no where like this.

CHILL - For what it is worth I think it wise to try and understand JS, Curt's point of view. With out being there and not having any consensus on what the true story may be, I feel they made a wise decision that day, how ever it played out. If caught off guard and pressured to climb, I could see how things could get awkward on the spot. However, there seems to have been a lack of communication prior to that trip, they intended one thing, and you intended for another.

That is the point of this thread, at this point, to make sure we don't have situations like that again. So, we need to leave the past alone, forgive and forget, and move forward with 100% open dialogue so the community at large can be united.

This day you all discuss is probably our best example of why we need to take another approach.

AS SEEN IN MANY OF THE PREVIOUS POSTS PEOPLE WANT TO WORK TOGETHER

I think the idea of a Queen Creek Coalition is a great idea. I look forward to seeing it come together.

However, we should get as much dialogue as we can together to figure out how we can be strong on saving Oak Flats, and strong on a replacement area.

We can use this forum to pool ideas. Start talking now instead of later.

This tread started out as aggressive and somewhat insulting to those who didn't agree with the OP agenda.

This crap needs to stop if you guy are going to get anywhere with this issue.

In any battle you want you divide and weaken your enemy...that exactly what RCC has done and some of you folks can't even see it.

Chris,

OK, I'm personally wiling to accept that there was simply a misunderstanding regarding that JK visit to Tamo. You need to understand that the misunderstanding went both ways, however--and while Sherman may have felt insulted, Jason felt we were ambushed. I suppose that's what happens when the appearance of having adversarial positions exists.

For the record, we did not give the place a bad review--and I have even stated multiple times that I liked the rock and enjoyed the few boulder problems I did there.

Curt

Thanks Curt,

A misunderstanding it was... 'nuf said.

I look forward to bouldering and climbing there with you again sometime.

Just a minor correction Kirra, AZSP is excited and WANTS to make Tamo happen regardless of the land exchange. Of course they are sweating the finances. If the land exchange does occur however, they would appreciate as much help as they can get from RCC.

I heard there was a meeting and the copper company told you guys that Tamo was off the table. I hate to say I told you so but...

Looks like this is unfolding in favor of RCC and climbers will get screwed. They get to save millions of dollars because the governor asked for rediculous amounts of money for the state park. RCC called her bluff and now we get left out. I think it is time to put some pressure on her. We were promised a state park and mitigation for the 1000's of routes and boulders to be lost at OF and we aren't getting squat to replace the loss. Tamo is the only thing that comes close to having similar numbers (and actuallly better rock) If we can't get the state park we need to make sure we at least get a road and some parking. RCC said they would build us a road to Tamo so we need to make them do it no matter what. Tamo is great and it is time for climbers to get behind it with force.

You have all been hashing this stuff out for some time on the internet and Friends of Queen Creek and The Access Fund have chosen not to get involved with Tamo for their own good reasons but it looks like it is time to act or we are going to get the shaft. Curt said that the Access Fund only gets involved when locals request it. It would be nice if they could do something but apparently they have already signed off so it is up to locals like Friends to follow through. It is time to cry "foul!" that the mining company is backing out of its promise to get us a new area for what we are losing. We should demand fair compensation route for route campsite for campsite at a minimum. Those are real losses. Stay after them to preserve what we can at Oak Flat but don't believe that they will throw away millions or billions in profit to use another mining method either. We are lucky to get anything out of them.
I don’t think they agreed to pay (or the state asked for) what the Governor is now asking for. The numbers discussed, and deemed reasonable, were around $3 million as I remember. Now she needs almost $20 million more than what the State Parks asked for originally. They have called the Governors bluff by saying, “No thanks.” to her deal. That is giving them an excuse to bail out on Tamo totally.
Unless we demand to get something significant for our losses (by getting Tamo) they appear happy to let it go. This is our replacement for Oak Flat and we deserve at least that. Sure they will throw us a bone by giving us another crag at Oak Flat but that does not come close to what we stand to lose.
Here's the scary part. What happens when their mining operations “inadvertently” expand into more land at OF? And what happens when the climbing lease expires? Do you really think they know how much area will subside? What if the deposit is bigger than they thought? Being protected by a federal law isn't stopping them now so what would prevent them from expanding once they start operations? By that point we have lost any leverage and we would lose the rest of Oak Flat and get nothing in return. I think we need to ask for as much as possible as insurance just in case.
It looks to me that the reluctance of the climbing community to support Tamo and the Governors demands for way more money than was originally agreed to has given them the opening to “unilaterally” decide to take it off the table. They win in the end by saving millions by bailing on Tamo and we end up where we were before Tamo was “discovered”. They get Oak Flat and we get screwed.
The Friends of Queen Creek need to tell the governor to get real about negotiating with the copper company so we won't be left holding the bag. Then demand that they live up to their "promise" to build us a road etc. at Tamo. Ask for more than we think we can get but settle for something better than what it looks like we are going to get now. Maybe we won't get a million dollar visitor center but who wanted that anyway? We don't have to get a state park. As long as we get access to some more climbing in AZ we will have made them pay something back.

Don't let them off the hook!

Peace,

JW

JW,

You raise many excellent points and it is clear that you are quite passionate about this issue. However, it is equally clear that your overall understanding of the situation may not be complete. First of all, the Access Fund has "signed off" on nothing--other than to enter into a license agreement with RCC, under which climbers can continue to climb on RCC's already private land. Clearly, no climbers should have a problem with that.

Secondly, it is fairly clear that Tamo was unilaterally taken off the table by RCC because the funding for creating this new climbing area was not forthcoming--not from the State of AZ, not from RCC, not from anywhere. And, this was certainly not because climbers did not express a desire for Tamo--but rather as a practical matter. Perhaps this is merely a game of Chicken between the State of AZ and RCC--I can't really tell at this point.

In any event, please rest assured that there are currently many local climbers diligently working to maintain as much access as possible to the Oak Flat and Queen Creek areas as possible, while also seeking fair compensation to the climbing community for any loss of existing climbing.

Curt

James Westfall, is that the left or right? Or should we call you the Octogon?

There is an old expression for the tactics employed by RCC.
"I will sell you the sleeves off my vest."

You seem to imply that if the deal doesn't happen and OF is saved we are losing something, Tamo.
However it was never theirs to 'give' us to begin with, i.e.. the sleeves of a vest. And further more OF/QC is not theirs either, as it is public land.
We lose nothing, it is called preservation. Stop twisting the logic, we're not Brick Tamlin.

Preservation is the obvious stance. It is protected land, specifically from mining. There is a real chance though that RC will be successfull. What happens then?

If preservation fails, and RC is successful, in ten years do we want to say climbers did not get compensted for their loss because? Or do we want to say we got as much as we could?

I appreciate your point and I really can't disagree with it.

The climbers of this community are still faced with the dilema of what happens if/when Apache and whatever opposition clout isn't enough and thousands of boulder problems/climbs are lost.

At some point we stick to our guns, cross our fingers and hope the Apache come through. Cut & run policy by making deals with RCC now is a sure loss of 1000's of routes at QC.

When the GOP ran congress it was a last chance solution by the AF, as the situation looked pretty grim, but in 2006 it all changed. With the greater influence in a Democratic congress & the introduction of the Apache things aren't looking so bad.

But nothing's sure except death and taxes.