Golden Beaver 

Why should we try to avoid using the fixed gear when that is how the route was originally free climbed. Getting that pro is difficult if you know what to put in let alone from the ground up. Climb it any way you want. Do it on gear alone or clip the thing, whatever makes you happy. But to say it "we should try" to do it on gear is silly. For most people leading it with the three pieces of fixed gear will be challenge enough. Please don't should on me or anyone else.

Well Eric, if you don't want to do ground up on gear, don't. Simple as that.

The "should", is in my opinion. If people never told me I should try and do something, I'm sure I would have missed out on some pretty special moments. I'm sure we have different views on bolting ethics, which is fine. But as I see it, if it can be done clean, why not do it clean? If the two bolts and piton were never there, would the route warrant putting them in now seeing as it is completely protectable with gear? Again, everyone will have there own opinion, which is good.

Again, if you don't want to do it on gear, then don't. I'm not trying to make people do anything. I'm just suggesting a different approach.

I think the issue is word choice... Few people can climb 5.12+ period, much less sustained, all gear, 5.12+ trad. You did say those moves are tougher to protect, and it's my understanding that the FA himself placed the fixed gear, not some later party who couldn't pull the moves. It seems like simply replacing the word "should" with the word "could" would make all the difference and make this way less contentious.

That said, if you can send this thing clean, that's awesome, man. Not many people are pushing the envelope on hard trad anymore.

All changed. Hope it reads better for you all.

Hey Brent, I am all for people doing things in better style if they want to. I talked to Chris about this climb and he said the pro is hard to get and tricky and he will have it racked in order when he tries not to break his neck. It will be a great accomplishment when he gets it but it just seemed like you were suggesting that it should be lead on gear which makes me think it is pretty doable. I would guess that it is if you climb 5.14 but not for the average guy. Now if the bolts were totally unnecessary because there is great pro (See Solar Flare Forum) then okay it maybe should be done all gear but that is not the case with this route. I do appreciate your ideal and support your striving to reach it. Good Luck.

I think, had you said, the gear is really hard to get and no one has ever done it this way but it would be bad ass for you to do it this way, I probably wouldn't have commented at all.

I never said anything about not breaking my neck. So far from the few times I've been on this I do know that the pro on this route is good although will require precision placing it. I don't have all of the gear placements memorized, or even fully worked out, but I'm probably not going to TR it anymore. Many whippers will be taken, but the gear will keep me off the ground so that should be good enough.

I feel strongly that a route such as this, even with tricky gear could, and will get onsighted someday. Please keep something in mind: there will be better climbers than us some day. Sorry if I bruised anyone's ego. Progression is part of climbing.

The reason this route can be free-climbed using natural protection placed on lead is a direct result of how the FA decided to put the route up. At the time there wasn't anything that could protect the seams and thin cracks, so some pins were placed. Eventually those were removed and replaced with others and finally some bolts were placed instead. As we all know pins scars can make pretty good gear placements. I find it ironic that an older way of protecting will allow this route to be part of a new way of climbing.

By using the fixed gear on these routes they can be more feasibly climbed by more people. More than likely these people will forget about a route like this after they've led it. Placing gear on a route like this would make for a truly classic experience.

So I'm with Brent, you SHOULD go try to do this thing only on gear! Try to onsight it if you've got the stones, and if not at least work it out on TR first. Either way RESIST the urge to use the bolts for any reason. Hold yourself to a higher standard. You'll be glad you did. You'll be surprised with what you can do.

I was wondering if anyone would want to go to Yosemite and to aid The Nose with me. I'm planning on taking several weeks and placing pitons all over the place, 'cuz hey, that's how the first ascensionist did it. And what's with all these people trying to free-climb El Cap anyway? Don't they know they can get up the thing much easier if they stand in aiders?

Progression

Hey Chris, if you can find one person that has lead that thing as it is and doesn't remember it I will buy you a six pack. Reread my post. Don't should on me at least in the description. I am sure people can lead it ground up but they are the rare exception. If you add a comment after as Brent did that's fine.

My main point here is that telling people they should do it on gear only instead of as my post suggested, (it would be bad ass for someone to do it ground up on gear) as it gave me the impression that people were generally doing it this way.


If you read my post I applaud your effort and anyone else that wants to do something in a better style.

Your thing about the nose is interesting Chris. I doubt anyone on a site like this says you should try to free the Nose because it will be a better experience for you. Doing the nose is a great experience if it is done free climbing or with aiders.

As far as the progression comment goes it is a bit hollow to me. You have TR'd it to figure out some of the gear and the moves. But maybe you SHOULD have lead it ground up and lowered to the ground after every fall. That is what we used to do. We didn't hang all over things working out moves and getting pro dialed in. We went to the ground and started again. So please don't lecture me on progression.

Now before we get into any more of a pissing match let me say again I think it is great that you think it should be done ground up. As long as it is down here in the comments not in the description and includes the facts about how you are trying to do it. Call me if you want to talk more. Could be the typewritten word is not that clear. My number is in chapter one of SQ II under corrections.

Chrispy needs to get a life...that would be progression.