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An Open Letter to My Climbing Community

Original Post
emilygindlesparger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 0

An Open Letter to My Climbing Community

To whom it may concern (and hey, we're all concerned, right?),

You haven't seen me post much on Mountain Project. In fact, my total number of contributions to the online community can fit on one hand. After seeing the nasty string of posts that came from the SACC Adopt A Crag announcement ("Come climb and trail build!" became a throng of negativity flung in all directions) I feel like it's time to speak up for why I don't contribute: I'm sick of this.

I know I'm not alone. I was struck by a professed newbie climber who posted on that thread that the discussion was "off-putting." Of course it is. And unfortunately, that's the image that new climbers and out of town climbers and silent online browsing climbers get of us.

There's so much gratitude to be had in this community, too: over the seven years I've been climbing in Tucson, I've been indebted to an incredible and talented clique of folks who've poured their sweat and their fear and their love and their money into creating my weekend recreation. If you've ever put up anything that I've climbed, please know that you've assisted in making me a better version of myself: I've become more confident, more courageous, more satisfied with my body image, more tolerant of suffering, more patient of others. I could have done that without you, I suppose, but I probably wouldn't have. Mentors and first ascensionists and guidebook creators alike have created a path for me to follow, and I am so much better and happier and fulfilled for it. Thank you.

I haven't paid that back. I have not attended any of the service events that SACC or CASA has put together (though I am excited to change that with the Adopt A Crag this weekend). Sometimes it's because my life and my needs just take me in a different direction on those dates in the year. And sometimes it's because of the negativity I see here on Mountain Project; I worry that those events won't be a place where I can do meaningful work and meet people--instead I worry they will be an awkward and uncomfortable encounter with the snarking and naysaying represented here. I hope I'm wrong on that count.

But I know I'm not the only one.

One more thing the newbie pointed out on that Adopt A Crag thread: it feels to him (and to plenty of others I've talked to, and even to me at times) that he had to pick sides to participate in this community. Shamefully, he's right. We are all judged and sometimes admonished for who we climb with and which organization we volunteer with. As a result, we don't climb with certain people. And we don't volunteer.

So here's my hope: that we'll stop one-upping and fact checking and accounting for each other. I can easily imagine that anyone with enough interest to click on this post has been personally attacked or hurt by those endless strings of comments. Or at the very least, you found them annoying while you were digging through them for the practical and useful information that occasionally precipitates.

I'm not saying we all have to like each other or get along. Climbing is dangerous and we have full reign to protect ourselves in any way we see fit. Life is complicated and we have full reign to navigate it however we need. I'm just saying this: Mountain Project is as public as any other place. And I expect that the way you act here will reflect the way you'll act to my face. Outsiders and newbies will assume the same.

If we can write the way we act (or want to act, fingers crossed), then I think more people like me--those of us with reservations--will come out of the woodwork to support and contribute and meet each other. If not, then I'll just go back to not participating and not worrying if that next comment is going to hurt me or someone else who has worked really hard in this community--and I include every single one of you in that category.

My gratitude and love to you all,

Emily Gindlesparger

Brentmw · · Kitchener, Ontario · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 0

Great Post!!

Joe Garibay · · Ventura, Ca · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 86

It irks me as well. I often rethink everything I'm about to type as to not draw too much conflict. With that being said, I also like the harshness of everyone's opinions. It lets people really dig into the topics. Wether the info is good or bad, there's plenty to learn. One can not learn everything from a fluffy pillow. Sometimes you got to get dirty and take some shit. I've aquired some of my best knowledge by reading on various debates

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

Emily, don't you know? No one on MP actually even climbs in real life. But yes, I agree that this forum is notoriously and excessively aggressive.

Nick Henscheid · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 615

I'm glad someone posted a message like this, because I've been wanting to do the same for some time but really haven't felt it was my place. I still don't, but here's my opinion anyway.

I seriously cannot give enough praise for the Tucson climbing community as a whole. During my 3 years here as a graduate student, I've found climbing to be a truly rewarding pastime, something that has kept me relatively healthy and relatively sane during an otherwise extremely stressful time of life. The climbers in Tucson are some of the best people, climbers or not, that I've met anywhere, and the fact that there are so many impassioned individuals here who pour their heart into developing routes and the local community are a major part of why it's so enjoyable to climb here.

It's a fact of life that people have disagreements, but it is an imperative of life that we find a way to deal with them in a healthy manner. Maybe it's late in the game - I know some of these rifts are older than me - but I do know that internet flame wars are not a healthy form of conflict resolution.

Perhaps someone with far more clout and organizational ability than me could organize some sort of beer summit (pun intended?) to hopefully resolve some of this SACC-vs-CASA nonsense.

In the meantime, I'm hoping to volunteer for as many of the events as I can for both groups, because to be honest, it's not about picking sides and I could care less about all the politics. It's completely, 100% selfish that I want to work to improve my own outdoor playground, because if I didn't have it, I would be a much sadder (and fatter) person.

Rosalieva · · southshore MA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 5

Thank you for this post

Hendrixson · · Littleton, CO · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 3,290

Thanks for the well reasoned post and responses.

Gabe Schwartz · · Hope Valley · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 5

I wouldn't take everything you read online at face value. In general, many people on forums tend to be d-bags for whatever reason. Also, those type of people tend to be the ones who yell the loudest and stick out more... so their numbers tend to be perceived as larger than they actually are. The overwhelming majority of people I meet while climbing are very friendly and helpful people. I imagine people who are out at Adopt-a-Crag days are even more so friendly and helpful. I would expect nothing but enthusiasm and camaraderie at an event like that, regardless of how much vitriol there is online about various topics.

~ Gabe

Glenn Schuler · · Monument, Co. · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,330

It all started when those Bandito fellas bolted Jim Waugh's car to the sidewalk. The drama and infighting has been a southern Arizona tradition ever since right?

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71

Most of us assholes are actually very friendly. People read too much into internet posts and tend to project their own feelings into other peoples replies even if the topic is not emotional.

dahigdon · · phoenix, Az · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 220

this thread is far more welcoming, nice work Emily...

JaminT Rossetter · · Gloucester, MA · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 0

Lovely, thanks Emily!

Mike Grainger · · Waterloo, ON Canada · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 286

Great post! I don't understand why so many people feel driven to play the part of "internet asshole". If you write like an asshole, you run the risk of being perceived as being an asshole. I don't think it has anything to do with readers projecting their feelings into it. The assholery speaks for itself.

BoulderCharles · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 95

I hear the frustration (and agree with you) but I would encourage you to participate in a volunteer event or the "in real life" community before assuming everyone who shows up is a bad person. I think the most vocal posters here are rarely attending volunteer events and, I suspect, are better people in real life.

What's more, why not become a member of the Access Fund and/or American Alpine Club? They are full of great people, they make a huge difference in our community, and you can avoid the forums while supporting the route developers you love! Heck, you can even join their regional events and meet climbers who are very likely nice people.

Jimbo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,310

Boulder Charles,

Wrong. I and several of the other vocal posters on MP attend every CASA Adopt a crag and clean up event. I'm also a member of the Access Fund and Trout Unlimited.

Just because some of us aren't afraid to call it like we see it doesn't mean we're anti social hermits.

If folks like Emily are traumatized by aggressive discussion on the internet they need to stay off the interwebs, cause we ain't changing to avoid someone being uncomfortable.

The world isn't sun drenched flowers swaying in the cool afternoon breeze, live with it.

I've never said anything on MP I wouldn't or didn't say to someone in person.

cavemonkey · · AK · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 0

ur a dick jimbo
emily's sentiments are shared by many many many people
how bout you stay off the interwebs!

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

Jimbo, you have restored my faith in humanity.

AWinters · · NH · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 5,120
Jimbo wrote: The world isn't sun drenched flowers swaying in the cool afternoon breeze, live with it.
So then let's not try to make it a better place? It already sucks so let's go with it? Let us conform to the already awful place the world is and be dicks to one another? Really really good point.

Thank you Emily for the thoughtful post, I agree 100%
Zac St Jules · · New Hampshire · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 1,188
Jimbo wrote: The world isn't sun drenched flowers swaying in the cool afternoon breeze, live with it.
Ridiculous
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

So all you folks enjoy a sport where you could watch a friend die or get hurt or killed yourself, but a little internet banter or even (gasp!) hostility is unbearable?

Zac St Jules · · New Hampshire · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 1,188
Mark E Dixon wrote:So all you folks enjoy a sport where you could watch a friend die or get hurt or killed yourself, but a little internet banter or even (gasp!) hostility is unbearable?
Yeah dude you nailed it. Thats exactly what we're suggesting.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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