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Dec 14, 2012
Day Lily.
In regards to the statement that a 5.12 traditionalist is better/more hardcore/experienced than a 5.12 sport climber is not so. It can be so but to state it as a fact is just not correct. I've lead several 5.10s traditionally (just breaking into the grade) but have switched leaders, while I was on lead, on a seneca 5.6 because I wasn't willing to run out a 15-17ft straight layback (wasn't experienced at liebacking and wasn't going to stop to place gear). My point is that what types of routes are you climbing? Same styles of climbing? Can you really compare a perfect hands crack traditional climb to a perfect hands bolted line (I don't know of one)? Everyone has strengths and weaknesses so to compare one climber to another is in no way every going to be factual down to the details, just enough to keep one busy mentally. I am smoother, more efficient at hands crack climbing then I am at a crimpy face climb.

I know some beautiful climbers who are constant students of all forms of climbing and want to be a good CLIMBER, not just a sport climber or traditionalist, etc. I also know beautiful climbers who could care less for placing gear or who hate bouldering therefore don't. To each his own is a fact not a cliche (even if you choose what the masses do you still had/have a choice and it was YOUR choice).
The Stoned Master
From Pennsylvania
Joined Dec 5, 2012
3,666 points
Dec 14, 2012
I stayed up all night thinking about this topic: trad, sport, alpine, boulder, sport, alpine, trad, boulder, trad...oh wait, no I didn't. This should be one of those topics that should have a word limit to post; maybe at the 45th word just cut yourself o.. Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
1,494 points
Administrator
Dec 14, 2012
El Chorro
chufftard wrote:
one can make the case that sport climbing has a skill set of it's own: crimping repeatedly, climbing through being pumped, keepng hips in with dropknees and backsteps, rest stances etc. but these skills don't change much through the grades unless you are on really steep or really slabby terrain. so, you pull harder on a 12 than an 11 and places like the Red, but the movement is very similar, even into the 13s.


So many things wrong with that statement.
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Administrator
Dec 14, 2012
El Chorro
In fact, this entire thread really shows how little MPers know about climbing.

Who says you can't rehearse a trad climb? And who says than 5.12 trad climbs don't get on sighted!?!
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Dec 14, 2012
At the BRC
Ryan Williams wrote:
In fact, this entire thread really shows how little MPers know about climbing. Who says you can't rehearse a trad climb? And who says than 5.12 trad climbs don't get on sighted!?!


I don't think anyone said either of those things.

Even when I was trad climbing I typically didn't rehearse routes. Nor did the folks I knew. Our standard was well below 5.12, so maybe things are different at that grade.

Nevertheless, my impression is that if someone reports being a "5.12 trad climber", they are doing the routes unrehearsed, and if someone reports being a "5.12 sport climber", they are redpointing, not onsighting. Pretty different skill levels.

Maybe I am mistaken about what folks are actually up to.
Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Joined Nov 29, 2007
204 points
Dec 14, 2012
slopey
Ice climbing season in canada > all other outdoor activities Jeremy Hand
Joined Feb 24, 2012
109 points
Dec 14, 2012
A grey fox skull wedged in a crack 100' up on a FA...
Ryan Williams wrote:
In fact, this entire thread really shows how little MPers know about climbing.


No, this entire thread is an abortion. It doesn't show anything about anybody.
Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Joined Jun 24, 2006
975 points
Dec 14, 2012
Ryan Williams wrote:
So I can be a weekend warrior with two weeks of holiday? No thanks. Each of those six trips above will be between 7 and 16 days. AND there is the added bonus of living in a real city with actual things to do besides going to the climbing gym and talking about how cool it is to live in Boulder.

Cool... well, just as a heads-up, if you do ever find yourself in Boulder, there's a decent little monocle shop at the west end of Pearl. I don't know about tea and trumpets, tho.
matt davies
Joined Mar 9, 2007
25 points
Dec 14, 2012
Crumpets. I believe it's tea and crumpets, not trumpets. But you never know about the Brits. It might be trumpets with your tea and crumpets.

And don't forget about the lemon curd. It might be lemon crud, but I think it's curd.
TWK
Joined Sep 15, 2012
164 points
Dec 14, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
tea and trumpets sounds like it would be relaxing, then really stressful. Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Joined Aug 15, 2008
357 points
Administrator
Dec 14, 2012
El Chorro
chufftard wrote:
my use of the word 'better' wasn't acurate, more like a trad climber has a broader skill set than a sport climber. one can make the case that sport climbing has a skill set of it's own: crimping repeatedly, climbing through being pumped, keepng hips in with dropknees and backsteps, rest stances etc. but these skills don't change much through the grades unless you are on really steep or really slabby terrain. so, you pull harder on a 12 than an 11 and places like the Red, but the movement is very similar, even into the 13s.


I just think that if your sport climb a lot, you will realize that the movement can be very different from route to route. To consistently send hard sport routes on different types of rock, you need to be a well rounded climber. It's not just about pulling harder.

As I am writing this though I sort of understand your point. To be a well rounded trad climber you need no be able to do many of the things you listed above and you ALSO need to be able to jam in any size.

But you did delete a post before anyone (but me) got to read it. Something about the trad climbers you know on sighting a lot of 11's and never making it further? I don't remember, I should have quoted it before it disappeared.
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Administrator
Dec 14, 2012
El Chorro
TWK wrote:
Crumpets. I believe it's tea and crumpets, not trumpets. But you never know about the Brits. It might be trumpets with your tea and crumpets. And don't forget about the lemon curd. It might be lemon crud, but I think it's curd.


I really don't know what any of that stuff is (except for tea, which I do like). I ate bacon and eggs for breakfast today and had Thai for lunch. We're having risotto for dinner.

And a monocle? What year do you guys think it is over here?
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Dec 14, 2012
Stabby
Just out of curiosity Ryan, have you located England's lone dentist yet? I heard he's on the Isle of Man and only open on Tuesday mornings. Mike Lane
From Centennial, CO
Joined Jan 21, 2006
839 points
Dec 14, 2012
Ryan Williams wrote:
And a monocle? What year do you guys think it is over here?

Are you saying this isn't you?


Boulder!? Egad!
Boulder!? Egad!
matt davies
Joined Mar 9, 2007
25 points
Administrator
Dec 14, 2012
El Chorro
chufftard wrote:
i agree with everything you wrote, and it doesn't contradict what i wrote. seems like you enjoy nitpicking my posts to find a bit of gray area to be contentious with.


I don't enjoy nitpicking YOUR posts, I just find it hard not to respond sometimes. For some reason your post just got to me the first time I read it. I didn't like how you said that the skills in sport climbing didn't change much through the grades, and that you just have to pull harder to get from 11 to 12. I think that there is a big difference between an 11b and a 12b. I remember when I was new to sport climbing, I could do a mid 5.11 routes in a day just by "pulling harder." It wasn't until I actually learned how to climb that I could send a mid 5.12 in a day.

But like I said, once I actually took time to write out a response I understood what you meant. Sometimes I just jump online for a min or two while I'm waiting for my tea and crumpets to be ready - I probably shouldn't be posting or replying to anyone if I don't have time to do it properly. Sorry.

Cheerio!
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Dec 14, 2012
Me again!
Can we at least say that the list is descending in technical and mental difficulty and ascending in physical difficulty?



Oh.

It's hard to climb alpine?
Than why do so many fat asses brag about their alpinism?


Oh, bouldering is easy?
Than why can't you project my warm ups? You suck.


Oh, trad climbing is lame.
Sack up sucker, let's see you do it! It's dam scary!

The hierarchy is in your mind. How you view it says tons about you but not much about climbing. If you enjoy bouldering than you enjoy immense suffering on a miniscule level. If you enjoy alpinism than you enjoy miniscule suffering on an immense level.


If you said sport climbing is neither, you are correct, and you are also an out of shape weak ass SH22T. Guarantee you can't sport climb.

And to the Brits:

don't they have their own site where tea and crumpets are the norm?
J Q
Joined Mar 11, 2012
58 points
Dec 14, 2012
I bet that J. Long guy who didn't finish his knot and decked is a real noob. Imagine that guy climbing outside! Or even worse, on gear. Everyone forgot about aid climbers, what about the ice mongrels! Those sissy people like C. Anker can't even climb a v7! tw160504
From fort collins, co
Joined Jun 4, 2009
0 points
Dec 14, 2012
thomas wisdom wrote:
I bet that J. Long guy who didn't finish his knot and decked is a real noob. Imagine that guy climbing outside! Or even worse, on gear. Everyone forgot about aid climbers, what about the ice mongrels! Those sissy people like C. Anker can't even climb a v7!

When I saw this thread was still alive I clicked to the end, just to see how far the thread had stooped. Pretty low.
Superclimber
Joined Mar 7, 2009
1,481 points
Dec 14, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
I think we are talking about several different types of things here when we ascribe value and rank to particular types of climbing.

It's pretty hard to have a debate when we haven't even begun to define our terms...

What is everyone's definition of a good climber? What makes a climber better than another? Is it pure physical prowess? Technical knowledge of gear systems? Boldness and ability to keep nerves in check? Is it the ability to combine all of these factors together?

I think everyone participating in this thread has a different idea of what makes someone a great climber and identifies with a certain aspect of that idea.

I think a few have said, and I tend to agree, that someone who routinely climbs grade VI 5.12 is a better climber than someone who routinely climbs 5.12 trad (who is a better climber than someone routinely climbing 5.12 sport (who is a better climber than someone climbing v5)).

In this example, the difficulty rating remains constant while the duration/length of the climb, the gear ability level and the general danger decrease in correlation with the supposed rank of the climber.

So how can you compare a v14 highball with a VI 5.10? Maybe you can't.

And how to factor in R, X, and Solos? Does taking more risk make someone a better climber? Or is there a separate spectrum of "how insane someone is" that applies? Although many soloists appear to be very calm and surprisingly not crazy.

Can we develop an algorithm to calculate just how good we are at climbing relative to everyone else? Is there an app for that?

Or maybe this is all just egocentric nonsense.
Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Joined Aug 15, 2008
357 points
Dec 14, 2012
Jon Zucco wrote:
It's pretty hard to have a debate when we haven't even begun to define our terms...

So is it crumpets or trumpets?
matt davies
Joined Mar 9, 2007
25 points
Dec 14, 2012
matt davies wrote:
So is it crumpets or trumpets?

This is an improvement;)
Superclimber
Joined Mar 7, 2009
1,481 points
Administrator
Dec 15, 2012
El Chorro
It's crumpets. I've never had one but they are probably something like a biscuit, which is actually a cookie.

Although in the real world, I THINK "having tea and crumpets" is slang for some pretty raunchy sexual antics.
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Dec 15, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on
"Although in the real world, I THINK "having tea and crumpets" is slang for some pretty raunchy sexual antics."

I'm intrigued...please elaborate
Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Joined May 4, 2011
700 points
Dec 15, 2012
Ryan Williams wrote:
It's crumpets. I've never had one but they are probably something like a biscuit, which is actually a cookie. Although in the real world, I THINK "having tea and crumpets" is slang for some pretty raunchy sexual antics.

And you think America is a weird place?

Regardless, I say tea and trumpets, with a biscuit that is actually a cookie, while bumping uglies, sounds like a good time. Might be tough to keep that monocle in place though.
matt davies
Joined Mar 9, 2007
25 points


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