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By TWK
Dec 13, 2012

Black Death got it right:

black death wrote:
the OP got the equation wrong. not greater than but.... trad + sport + boulder + ice + speed + fear = alpine (not mountaineering). all around competent and fast are the key.


Not even debatable.


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 13, 2012
OTL

TWK wrote:
Black Death got it right: Not even debatable.


Wait - where does gym fit in? The equation is still all wrong. Damn, here goes another 4 pages.


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Dec 13, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

Went bouldering last night, sport climbed last week, will be traddin it up next week. Looking forward to the diamond next year.

It's all fun. It's all climbing.

Try meditation or Ayahuasca or some other kind of 'reset button' if you're having trouble understanding. We're all cut from the same cloth, my friend.


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By The Stoned Master
From Millerstown, PA
Dec 13, 2012
Day Lily.

+1


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By TWK
Dec 13, 2012

Matt N wrote:
Wait - where does gym fit in? The equation is still all wrong. Damn, here goes another 4 pages.


Somewhere between Bouldering and Sport, perhaps? Or is that the "New Math"?


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By Drew Hayes
From Charlotte, NC
Dec 13, 2012
Lost in Space

Dang what's with all the rollerblading hate! I skated hard for about 10 years.


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By Daniel Wade
From Chicago, IL.
Dec 13, 2012

As a mostly trad climber, I do like to dabble in sport and bouldering from time to time. I think it's a good way to build strength as some other posters have mentioned. I do sometimes dismiss sport climbers, but this is only because of things they often say. I am speaking generally, but many I have spoken to, that have not done much or any trad, seem to think 5.7 trad is scrambling. If you're not doing 5.12 then you're not a serious climber.

I think people derive different things from climbing so that's something to consider. I like the gear and mechanics aspect. I like that it takes lots of skill and training to be able to climb a long alpine 5.7. For example. knowing what to do with gear and how to build anchors when you get to the end of the pitch and you don't have the right pieces. For me it's a real neat feeling to get to the top of a peak and think that you got there which the help of some gear on your harness, your route finding ability, and the support of your partner.

Sport climbers look for other things in climbing which I'm sure some of our members can describe.


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By TWK
Dec 13, 2012

Daniel Wade wrote:
Sport climbers look for other things in climbing which I'm sure some of our members can describe.


Like tight low-cut spandex sports bras?


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By bearbreeder
Dec 13, 2012

5.7 IS scrambling ;)

the funny thing is that most of the good sport climbers i know and have had the fun of teaching trad are more humble than many of the trad climbers i know ... they also climb harder trad than many trad climbers once they get solid in gear placement ...

IMO its much harder to teach someone how to climb hard than how to place good gear and other such basics ...


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By Johnny Nubbins
Dec 13, 2012

bearbreeder wrote:
5.7 IS scrambling ;)


That would be fourth class in the Gunks


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By TWK
Dec 13, 2012

bearbreeder wrote:
the good sport climbers i know and have had the fun of teaching trad are more humble than many of the trad climbers i know ... they also climb harder trad than many trad climbers once they get solid in gear placement ...


BearBreeder, I usually find myself in close agreement with your posts, but I gotta say most of the sport climbers I've talked with don't do ANY trad 'cause they don't know nuthin' 'bout placing no gear--and don't have interest in learning.

Guess we hang out with different folks. Sounds like you need to send me your friend list. ;-)


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By TWK
Dec 13, 2012

Johnny Nubbins wrote:
That would be fourth class in the Gunks


But it would be HARD 4th class--at least 4.12d.


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By bearbreeder
Dec 13, 2012

TWK wrote:
BearBreeder, I usually find myself in close agreement with your posts, but I gotta say most of the sport climbers I've talked with don't do ANY trad 'cause they don't know nuthin' 'bout placing no gear--and don't have interest in learning. Guess we hang out with different folks. Sounds like you need to send me your friend list. ;-)



something like 70%+ of the routes in squamish if not more are trad or mixed lines ... most good sport climbers i know here eventually do some trad ...

having a big monolith called the chief right by the road is a great incentive to learn how to progress beyond a sport weenie ;)


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Dec 13, 2012
modern man

bearbreeder wrote:
something like 70%+ of the routes in squamish if not more are trad or mixed lines ... most good sport climbers i know here eventually do some trad ... having a big monolith called the chief right by the road is a great incentive to learn how to progress beyond a sport weenie ;)


but more often than not they once dabbled in it, got scared a few too many times and kept to the bolts after.

I wonder what the percentages of styles we have here on Mtn Proj is?
I'll guess- 15% pure sport/pad people, 25% pure traddies and 60% do it all.


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By TWK
Dec 13, 2012

TRmasta wrote:
I wonder what the percentages of styles we have here on Mtn Proj is?

That would be an interesting survey, but who would trust the results? MP posters would have too much fun with it to be taken seriously!


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By bearbreeder
Dec 13, 2012

TRmasta wrote:
but more often than not they once dabbled in it, got scared a few too many times and kept to the bolts after.


not the ones i know ... they run up the grand wall or other such multis on the OFF days ... stuff some "trad" climbers brag about loudly ...

the sport climbers i know spend most of their timing climbing sport of course ... but on their fun/rest/do something different days ... they go out and onsight 5.10+/11-+ cracks ...

and if the gear is good and the fall is clean they arent afraid to take the fall ... unlike some moderate "trad" climbers who are honeslty afraid of their own shadow once they get above gear ...

understand that out here "trad" is nothing special ... every good rounded climber i know does a bit of everything eventually ...

the only people ive met who say loudly that other climbers are "lesser" or sport climbers arent "as good" (and not as a joke) are people that often dont climb very hard, bragging about how sending that well protected 5.7 trad route is better than any bolted 5.12 ... i once saw some loud mouthed "mountaineers" take 2 grounders on a 5.5 because he was bragging about how hardcore he is for climbing it in boots ...

i used to have the same attitude having started in trad, but having the privilege to teach gear to 5.12 sport weenies has been an eye opener ... as long as they have the proper respect for the dangers and gear ... having them onsight my projects at the time within the first year (and safely) destroyed any notion of "sport weenism"

in fact taking up sport as hard as i can is what has allowed me to attempt 5.12- cracks ... something i would never have been able to do running up moderate trad routes alone ..

gear placement and safety is very easy to teach to someone with the proper attitude ... hard climbing is not easy to teach or learn at all IMO

its that simple ;)


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By J Q
Dec 13, 2012
Me again!

bearbreeder wrote:
not the ones i know ... they run up the grand wall or other such multis on the OFF days ... stuff some "trad" climbers brag about loudly ... the sport climbers i know spend most of their timing climbing sport of course ... but on their fun/rest/do something different days ... they go out and onsight 5.10+/11-+ cracks ... and if the gear is good and the fall is clean they arent afraid to take the fall ... unlike some moderate "trad" climbers who are honeslty afraid of their own shadow once they get above gear ... understand that out here "trad" is nothing special ... every good rounded climber i know does a bit of everything eventually ... the only people ive met who say loudly that other climbers are "lesser" or sport climbers arent "as good" (and not as a joke) are people that often dont climb very hard, bragging about how sending that well protected 5.7 trad route is better than any bolted 5.12 ... i once saw some loud mouthed "mountaineers" take 2 grounders on a 5.5 because he was bragging about how hardcore he is for climbing it in boots ... i used to have the same attitude having started in trad, but having the privilege to teach gear to 5.12 sport weenies has been an eye opener ... as long as they have the proper respect for the dangers and gear ... having them onsight my projects at the time within the first year (and safely) destroyed any notion of "sport weenism" in fact taking up sport as hard as i can is what has allowed me to attempt 5.12- cracks ... something i would never have been able to do running up moderate trad routes alone .. gear placement and safety is very easy to teach to someone with the proper attitude ... hard climbing is not easy to teach or learn at all IMO its that simple ;)



Dam dude, you ruined the fun, now there is nothing left to argue about. Can we go back to the idea that 5.7 trad is sick, extreme, and gnarly as life goal? If it were such, I have already accomplished my life goal and that makes it so much easier to feel good about myself. On the other hand, that 300 pound beast did too, and I don't know how I feel about that! Wow, lots of beasts doing their thing. Go on beasties, go on!


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By TWK
Dec 13, 2012

What?


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By matt davies
Dec 13, 2012

Tits McGee wrote:
I dislike the OTC (off the couch) Trad guys that spew ethical non-sense,.

What about the OTC Trad guys with absolutely no ethical code whatsoever?


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By Tits McGee
From Boulder, CO
Dec 13, 2012
How I Send

matt davies wrote:
What about the OTC Trad guys with absolutely no ethical code whatsoever?


Considering my name is Tits, I tend to enjoy climbing with people flexible morals and no ethics what so ever, so those guys are okay.


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By matt davies
Dec 13, 2012

Cool. Just checking.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 13, 2012
El Chorro

You guys want to know something crazy? I had led a few 5.8s on gear before I even knew there was such a thing as sport climbing! Once I found out how much fun sport climbing was I went to Thailand and stayed for three years. Then all I wanted to do was climb hard trad so I went on road trips and did that. Finally, in 2012 some of my best trips were to bouldering areas.

Next year I have plans to visit Spain and Greece for sport, Norway and California for trad, and France and the Peak District for bouldering. But compared to a lot of UK climbers I am still very one dimensional because I don't really know how to climb on high mountains or over glaciers (not well enough to go alone anyways).

As usual, America is a strange place. For a continent with so much alpine terrain, there are surprisingly few "climbers" who actally know how to move in the alpine world. I sort of fall into that category and I've been climbing for half of my life.

Not that there is anything wrong with that - just making an observation.


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By matt davies
Dec 13, 2012

Ryan Williams wrote:
Next year I have plans to visit Spain and Greece for sport, Norway and California for trad, and France and the Peak District for bouldering. As usual, America is a strange place. Not that there is anything wrong with that - just making an observation.

Damn bro, just move to Boulder and call it good.


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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Dec 13, 2012
Sure, I can belay

chufftard wrote:
i would concede that a 12 trad climber is a better climber than a 12 sport climber.


This seems correct to me as well, but I'm not sure it's a fair comparison, since trad routes are typically onsighted and not worked extensively. If trad 12s were rehearsed the way sport routes are, then maybe some of us mortals might get on them.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 14, 2012
El Chorro

matt davies wrote:
Damn bro, just move to Boulder and call it good.


So I can be a weekend warrior with two weeks of holiday? No thanks. Each of those six trips above will be between 7 and 16 days. AND there is the added bonus of living in a real city with actual things to do besides going to the climbing gym and talking about how cool it is to live in Boulder.


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