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Advice: Double or Single Ropes

Original Post
Christian Ensign · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 30

All,
Context / Background: I have climbed for several years on a single rope. I am working with a professional guide service to begin courses on more advanced traditional alpine climbing. I have never used or owned double ropes before.

I have read Mountaineering - FOTH, read several different instructional guides, but I need help understanding the critical difference in the application & uses of double ropes vice a single rope.

Any good knowledge is greatly appreciated.

Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800

It depends!

Are you going to climb meandering routes?
Do you plan to climb as a party of three?
Are there long rappels to get back to the ground?
Is there risk of hanging up a rope during the pull on a multiple rap descent?

These are some (not all) of the reasons why doubles might be the choice. Personally, I have singles and half ropes, and I choose which to use depending on the climb.

Christian Ensign · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 30

Thanks for the quick response. I should have answered those questions in my initial response:

1. Meandering routes - very likely
2. Party of three - almost all the time
3. Likely long raps

With the application of the double rope - are they to be used independently of one another or can they be connected to the same piece of protection? I read that if they are tied to the same piece of protection, they should be clipped separately.

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

You should distinguish between "twins" and "half" ropes. "Double" is kind of generic term and could apply to either case, but the way you use them is very different.

Half rope system you only clip one rope to any single piece. Twins you clip both. Halves tend to be larger diameter than twins (~8-9 vs. as low as mid-7s for twins).

It's more complicated though, because some ropes are certified as both (Petzl Verglas comes to mind). The rope end will have a "1/2" marking for halves, and two overlapping circles for twins.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374

When they get rolling, others will certainly give you plenty of great info here (rgold, especially), but in the meantime, the post awesome trad movies thread has at least some with two ropes going. I don't do this yet, but the vids are interesting!

frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95

First, I want to say that I've climbed with double ropes a lot. In the 80's that's what we used to help with rope drag issues and quick single rappels.
I would definitely recommends halves as opposed to twins. It gives you much more flexibility and the difference in weigh isn't enough to justify twins. Also, if you're going to be climbing with three, one can lead and the others can each tie into one of the ropes or even simo-climb if necessary. And last, if the people you're climbing with don't have a lot of experience, rapping with doubles is a little easier than with twins. Those twins can be slippery going through a rap device.

john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

Other than a party of 3 (like you said)....I think double ropes are a silly pain in the ass.

frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95
Christian Ensign wrote:I read that if they are tied to the same piece of protection, they should be clipped separately.
If you clip to the sam piece of gear, add a biner and clip the second rope through it.
JonasF · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 10

Im also in the process of getting some new ropes. It would be the first set of halfs I buy and have only climber with this metod of Roping up a few Times before.

But what should I get? A half rope or the rope that has both certificates See below are the ropes im looking at. First one is half only, second is half and twin. The reason is mainly because i want to learn a new technique

simond.com/en/cat/Ropes/prd…

simond.com/en/cat/Ropes/prd…

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

For a party of three, yes doubles. For party of two you will have to weigh pros and cons vs single lead line and a tag line. The answer won't be as clear. You will find opinions supporting both.

Total weight? Depends on the ropes you are comparing.

Belayer proficiency? Most US climbers have experience with single lines. Few have experience with doubles. It can be learned of course.

Ability to lead on either line if one rope gets stuck. Depends on tag line chosen. Typically tag lines light weight and are not meant to be lead on. But some use "big" tag lines that can be lead on. That puts you back to the first question: total weight.

Likelihood of cut ropes from rock fall?

Many other things to consider.

My suggestion: if you and regular partners climb a lot of alpine get doubles. If it is occasional alpine, stick with a single and tag.

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674

My advice is to start here. There is a lot of good info about using double ropes on the UK forums as it seems to be a lot more common there.

ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…

Next, read through these. I've been leading on doubles for a long time but RGold has me beat by a longshot. There's a lot of wisdom and experience in these posts:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1086805#1086805

rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…

rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061
john strand wrote:Other than a party of 3 (like you said)....I think double ropes are a silly pain in the ass.
See how "silly" they are the next time you climb some tiered roofs, or pitches that wander all over the place.

See how "silly" they are the next time you put a crampon point through a single rope and start wondering if it will hold a fall.

See how "silly" they are when you try to shave weight by using a single rope and skinny pull cord for raps, and spend hours dealing with the spaghetti clusterfk of that little pull cord.
john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

OK

use runners

don't step on your rope

learn how to do multiple raps

Or maybe just pay attention more

Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

Oh god both of you have such giant cocks and are so experienced!

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Tico wrote:Oh god both of you have such giant cocks and are so experienced!

Haha.. Outstanding!

Double rope do come in handy in certain situations. It's nice to have two ropes in the middle of nowhere just in case. Some raps require doubles and a tag line isn't always the answer.

But belaying two ropes sucks! Rope management is major important, two ropes can feel like untangling Christmas lights and leading with doubles can be challenging at first.
climber pat · · Las Cruces NM · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 286

Double ropes are really nice if you have a party of 3, wondering routes, and long rappels. There is a learning curve and more complexity but the advantages can easily make them worth the effort.

My ropes are certified as half/twin meaning I can use either technique. I strongly prefer the twin technique unless I am climbing a wondering route. Clipping both ropes into each protection prevents the ropes from getting twisted around themselves and causing a lot of friction. Of course paying good attention to how you are clipping ropes in 1/2 mode can prevent this problem (it is entirely user error). Climbing with twin ropes is most similar to climbing with a single rope.

I recommend buying ropes rated for half and twin as they are commonly available. You can also get ropes rated as single/half/twin now too. Whatever you get, make sure your belay device works properly with your new ropes. Especially the single/half/twin in single mode.

Edit:
I have the mammut serenity single/half/twin as my single rope and a pair of mammut phoenix half/twin

Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800
Christian Ensign wrote:Thanks for the quick response. I should have answered those questions in my initial response: 1. Meandering routes - very likely 2. Party of three - almost all the time 3. Likely long raps With the application of the double rope - are they to be used independently of one another or can they be connected to the same piece of protection? I read that if they are tied to the same piece of protection, they should be clipped separately.
So, based on your answers to my questions, I would recommend a set of half ropes (or ropes rated as both halfs and twins, but not twins). Here's why: 1) Half ropes really shine on meandering routes, you clip each rope separately to gear, generally using one rope for gear on the right, and the other rope for gear on the left of the route. The idea is to minimize rope drag. Don't bother to clip both ropes to the same piece of gear, each rope is rated properly for a fall by itself, and clipping both to the same piece is a twin rope technique. There are likely exceptions, but the most likely is if you have two followers and they need a directional, in which case, clip each rope to separate carabiners. 2) Halfs (or twins) is the lightest and probably fastest way to climb multi-pitch as a party of three IMHO. Leader leads on both, each climber follows on one end of each rope. You must be adept at using a belay device in guide mode in order to bring up both second and third simultaneously. Swapping leads can be a bit of a cluster, once you learn how to do it, it can be done smoothly and efficiently. 3) if you plan long rappels, then a set of halfs (or twins) gives you two full rope lengths for each rappel. Know how to tie the ends together properly for a rappel (minimize risk of getting the knot hung up, but for gods sake don't let them come untied).

A few other reasons, if a rope gets stuck on rappel, you likely have all or most of the other rope to either climb up to retrieve the stuck rope, or you can abandon it and use the other rope to get safely down. Likewise, if one rope gets damaged you have some options for self rescue. It can be a bit of learning cove for the lead belayer to belay on two ropes, make sure to learn that before you head out on a set of halfs or twins.
christoph benells · · tahoma · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 306

I have a set of double/twins and use them occasionally for all the reasons posted above.

I usually dont use them for meandering rock routes, i find runners work better and are simpler.

But I use them for leading a party of three, and ice climbing. I use one of the lines as a glacier rope for climbing in Alaska.

I never really find raps on rock routes i cant get down easily with my single 70m on rappels.

It is pretty sweet for big alpine ice routes though, setup a v-thread as one of the belay points and they are all setup for rapping down. full length pitches and rappels. 10 ice screws= 1 screw + v thread for each belay and an ice screw every 20 feet on lead. nice quick easy escape.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Some of those posts of mine linked by Wivanoff are 12 years old. Amazingly enough, I still agree with myself (which is very often not the case).

One of the problems with these discussions is that many of the advantages of half ropes are neither mentioned nor even understood, and the claims boil down to (1) less drag on wandering routes, (2) ability for two seconds to follow at once, (3) and full-length rappels.

All of these are true mind you, but they aren't close to the whole story. Perhaps the most telling advantage is for what I'd call "wandering pro." The route might not wander at all, but the pro opportunities might still be scattered, and this is perfectly possible on granite and other rock types with predominately vertical crack structure. Single-rope climbers may have blind spots for such diffuse pro opportunities, because the placements won't work with single ropes and extension slings, and they've trained themselves to think in terms of one rope line. I've seen this in action on a bunch of occasions, and in none of them was the route wandering.

Obviously, a person has to re-educate their eye for protection opportunities and learn to use two-rope systems. Just buying a pair of half ropes and taking them out on a climb or two isn't going to do it, nor is using them mostly on ice. Sitting at a computer typing opinions uninformed by any experience at all is also worthless. I suspect from the absence of any supporting evidence offered that these discussions get a lot of input of those types.

There is a myth about half ropes that nonetheless has some truth in it, but not because of what the proponents say. You will read that half ropes have lower impact forces. No test on a single half rope with a full-weight load has ever confirmed this. The maximum impact loads appear to be effectively the same. But, properly deployed, half ropes run straighter, and fewer and/or shallower bends at each carabiner mean less rope friction (which recall is exponential with the bend angle), which in turn means that the full length of the rope out is available for energy absorbtion. The result is that the effective fall factor is not increased because of rope segments that are quarantined by friction and don't stretch much, so in the end you will in many situations get lower loads on the gear.

Half ropes negate many of the problems associated with a blown clip, so much so that they'd make a number of sport climbs safer low down. In the same vein, half ropes allow you to clip marginal overhead protection without worrying about the slack penalty to be paid if the overhead piece blows.

Half ropes allow, in many cases, for far better protection for the second on traverses, do not force the leader to forgo protection themselves, and do not force the leader to create right-angle bends at one end of the traverse or the other.

Half rope simplify anchor construction when only the rope is being used, and provide a book-chapter worth of options in emergency situations requiring self-rescue maneuvers, as well as providing a safety margin in cases of rockfall or sharp edges. I believe there has never been an accident in which both strands of a half rope pair have been cut by running over a sharp edge.

Although this is probably a non-issue for many people, half-ropes provide a safer environment for beginners. One of the nightmares of anyone who has taught beginners is that the second will climb past a protection piece and put themselves in leader-fall territory. With half ropes, there will be a second strand that is still adequately protecting the follower.

The ability to do full-length rappels is a luxury of little consequence on small crags, but on big routes and in remote settings it can be a matter of life and death. Although a single rope and tag line are popular in the US, most of the rest of the world, and in particular European climbers with considerably more experience in alpine conditions, choose either half ropes or twins. The singular advantage of half ropes is having a rope you can pretty confidently lead on after one of your ropes has either been damaged or has irretrievably hung up. Tag line methods can leave the party with just the tag line if a rappel pull hangs, and care and attention is needed in setting up tag line rappels to avoid fatal glitches.

Of course, there are problems with half ropes. Belaying is one of them. The belayer has to be more skilled and more attentive, otherwise most of the advantages enumerated above will be negated. Again, both practice and discipline are required, and it may be that easily-distracted individuals should stick to single lines (where they can still cause plenty of problems).

Associated with belaying is the choice of device. Half ropes are of course thinner than single ropes. You want to be damn sure your device is going to supply enough friction for a big fall on a single strand, and the device manufacturer's recommendations are misleading and in some cases not to be believed. Better perform some tests yourself, at the very least a single-strand overhanging rappel. An assisted braking device may be a good solution for many people, but most of the available ones are mediocre to bad when it comes to handling simultaneous paying out and taking in. I think the best of the lot in this regard is the CT Alpine Up, but all assisted braking devices have serious potential glitches and have to be fully understood and used with care and attention.

No matter what device you use, gloves are an extremely good idea. Not just for catching falls, but also for rope-handling. The belayer will typically separate the strands in their belay hand and have one strand running between a pair of fingers. The skin between the fingers is not at all tough and I have gotten blisters without gloves just from rapid paying-out and taking-in actions.

The biggest problem with half ropes is handling issues at belays without ledges. If there is a ledge to pile the ropes on as the leader brings up the second, there won't be any problems in paying the ropes out again. But if the ropes have to be flaked over the tie-in, unbelievably horrible tangles can occur, especially if the party is not swapping leads. Half-rope users try to put on a good face about this in public, but the reality is that sooner or later you will probably be hit by a Gordian knot. (The only thing worse is, ironically, a tangled tag line.)

So you have to be super careful about how you stack and unstack your ropes in hanging situations. Although I am not generally a big fan of belaying the second off the anchor, the ability to attend better to the stacking process when using a guide plate is a strong argument for that type of belay when the ropes can't be piled on a ledge. On long climbs with many hanging belays, I've found it worthwhile to use Metolius rope hooks for rope stacking. The fact that you can lift and drop strands off them rather than having to pull them off a tie-in makes a significant difference in avoiding bad tangles.

Finally, a word about two seconds at once. This is a great way to make a party of three nearly as fast as a party of two, but you may have to trade away many of the half-rope advantages in order to insure that both seconds are adequately protected. In many cases, the situation can be managed by have the leading second reclip ropes for the following second so that they are not condemned to awful pendulums. But in some cases the leader will have to treat the system like a singe line and not use the ability to run possibly widely-spaced parallel strands up the pitch.

DavidLG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 20

Quote from RGold:
"Of course, there are problems with half ropes. Belaying is one of them. The belayer has to be more skilled and more attentive, otherwise most of the advantages enumerated above will be negated. Again, both practice and discipline are required, and it may be that easily-distracted individuals should stick to single lines (where they can still cause plenty of problems)."

The above statement is quite true and often eliminates any advantage of using this set up with beginners. The other thing that I did not see mentioned in RGolds post was about rappelling with thin ropes which can be more difficult to control than when using single ropes of a larger diameter. Everything else rings true and is probably from RGolds own practical experiences, which is vast.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Christian Ensign wrote:All, Context / Background: I have climbed for several years on a single rope. I am working with a professional guide service to begin courses on more advanced traditional alpine climbing. I have never used or owned double ropes before. I have read Mountaineering - FOTH, read several different instructional guides, but I need help understanding the critical difference in the application & uses of double ropes vice a single rope. Any good knowledge is greatly appreciated.
regardless of all the above which was well stated ...

you should learn how to use em simply because you will be instructing folks ... you should know the more common systems and tools used by your students

one note is that having a party of 3 SIMPLIFIES the rope management quite a bit as you now have 2 folks to deal with it at belays

- when seconds get up they immediately reflake one rope into separate stacks

- white the belayer belays, the second person feeds him the rope, preventing twists .... this also acts as a backup belay in case of rockfall

however the skill level required by the leader goes up quite a bit

- you need to plan ahead what to clip and what not to clip for the middle (weakest) second

- you need to carry up extra draws (having a weak middle try to unclip and reclip ropes is asking for it) for the middle climber to protect traverses

- you need to be aware of the aditional failure mode of using 2 seconds on autoblock

- you need to be able to self rescue 2 folks if needed

needless to say bringing up 2 folks on climbs at your leading limit isnt the best idea unless everyone is on the same page

;)
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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