Mountain Project Logo

ABC climbing rope belay anchor

Original Post
MTKirk · · Billings, MT · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 245

I'm interested in all opinions and comments, looking for a "Shake Down" of my methodology.

Lately I seem to have pretty much standardized on building belay anchors with the climbing rope. I call the method I use the ABC (AlpineButterfly-Clove). I like it because it is fast, easy, and uses no extra carabiners. I always add the power-point, those committed to belaying off the harness could just leave it off. The configuration I use most frequently is with three pieces, but it works great with four or two also. I don't incorporate a upward piece into my anchors, those I clip into my tie in loop (be careful if you do this that your tie in knot can be ring loaded).

At times I have used this method when I am doing all the leading. I add another large Alpine-Butterfly loop between the power-point and my tie-in, the second clips this to his belay loop and unties. I take the seconds' end tie in, and clove this line to a 'biner on the power-point. After this I untie my original tie-in and the second ties in with it. As soon as the second has me on belay (and I have recovered the rack) I unclip from the power-point and lead the next pitch. I avoid having to flip or re-stack the rope this way and have found it a time saver.

The video shows the construction of the three piece anchor (the most commonly used) and the belay technique I use to bring up the second. Also I've included how I belay the new leader and finally break down the anchor.

click here for ABC video

Three point ABC anchor

Four point ABC anchor

Two point ABC anchor

ABC video link

Superclimber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 1,310

Let the games begin;D

William Sonoma · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 3,550

The video doesn't work on my phone but I think its bad ass that you are customizing/creating different/unique or possibly new ways. I am going to 'disect' your pics; I love playing around/figuring out new methods. Keep it up man!

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674

Your two point anchor looked familiar. It's not really new.
See here Anchoring.pdf Scroll down to "The Direct Tie In" on page 6 and picture 6. Chauvin used a fig 8 instead of an Alpine Butterfly. I don't see why Chauvin's method could not clove two biners with his fig 8 loop - which would duplicate what you did.

I like the method that RGold has posted in the past. RGold Anchor Your 3-point anchor uses 4 carabiners. 5 if you add a redirect. RGold's method uses 4 carabiners. 5 if you add a redirect.

I do like building anchors with the rope. Thanks for posting.

MTKirk · · Billings, MT · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 245
wivanoff wrote:Your two point anchor looked familiar. It's not really new. See here Anchoring.pdf Scroll down to "The Direct Tie In" on page 6 and picture 6. Chauvin used a fig 8 instead of an Alpine Butterfly.


Yes, I had seen the same thing with the figure Eight on A Bight years ago in a book or mag. No claim of originality here, I'm sure it's all been done before. I prefer the Alpine Butterfly because;
1) It is easier to tie a big loop. A large loop is needed to incorporate clove hitches in the loop.
2) It is easy to adjust the size and/or location of the loop in the Alpine Butterfly after it is tied.
3) It is very easy to untie the Alpine Butterfly (even after it has been loaded)

wivanoff wrote:I like the method that RGold has posted in the past. RGold Anchor Your 3-point anchor uses 4 carabiners. 5 if you add a redirect. RGold's method uses 4 carabiners. 5 if you add a redirect. I do like building anchors with the rope. Thanks for posting.
I used a method similar to this originally, I first saw it in "Freedom of the Hills". It differed in that it used the belay loop of the harness as the "Power Point" instead of the Alpine Butterfly loop. If you look carefully at the RGold picture (RGold Anchor) you'll see that you do need an additional carabiner to hold a clove hitch between two pieces of protection (near the number "3"). I guess theoretically you could also hang your belay device off of this carabiner, though you would have the risk of dropping the clove hitch when changing belay devices. I still sometimes use this method (it is a little easier if it's going to be a hanging belay). Most of the time I am faster with my method and find it easier to get the pieces equalized.

Thanks for the comments!
Bud Martin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 380

How many feet of rope does this usually consume?

MTKirk · · Billings, MT · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 245
Bud Martin wrote:How many feet of rope does this usually consume?
About 12 feet, that's a down side with tying in with the rope. Turns my 70m into a 60m. Still I'd rather pull 10 meters more rope up than have a cordellete hanging from my harness.

Reduced to typing about climbing Bud? You must be done dirt bagging and back to the real world. Looks like you had an amazing trip! At least you have ice climbing at home, my situation is more grave. Wife has banned me from ice, so it's gym climbing :(, Aiding crappy sandstone, and praying for 40 degree days for me.
Glass Tupperware · · Atlanta · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 45

Using your rope in the anchor is really bad for rescue situations. If you need to do a counterbalance carry or do hauling, you'll sort of be screwed. You should really be carrying a cordalette for sketchy situations anyway.

Bud Martin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 380
MTKirk wrote:Still I'd rather pull 10 meters more rope up than have a cordellete hanging from my harness. Reduced to typing about climbing Bud? You must be done dirt bagging and back to the real world.
I guess my strategy is to keep a double sling on my harness and use that with draws or whatever to make things happen, or just carry the cord.

I am home in Wisconsin for the holidays then back to the desert to climb some granite. The good part is that living in my truck is turning into the real world...
mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120
Steve R wrote:Using your rope in the anchor is really bad for rescue situations. If you need to do a counterbalance carry or do hauling, you'll sort of be screwed. You should really be carrying a cordalette for sketchy situations anyway.
Yes and no. I agree, a cordelette anchor is really useful in rescue, and really don't mind carrying one or more. I like them, but you can always cut away the anchor portion of the rope if needed and leave it behind. The main rope can also be used for subsequent anchors on a multi rap descent, but your 70 m rope could become a 60, then 50 then 40 etc as you bail.

The other aspect of this is the shelf of a rope tied anchor rarely has a real honest to goodness multi-loop shelf which is really helpful for rescue.
Steve Levin · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 952
Ben Hicks wrote: you can always cut away the anchor portion of the rope if needed and leave it behind. The main rope can also be used for subsequent anchors on a multi rap descent, but your 70 m rope could become a 60, then 50 then 40 etc as you bail. The other aspect of this is the shelf of a rope tied anchor rarely has a real honest to goodness multi-loop shelf which is really helpful for rescue.
In a single-rope, multi-rap rescue scenario it would be quite complicated to build a subsequent, lower rap anchor incorporating the rope you are rappelling on, especially tandem rappelling with your patient- not to mention your rap distance will be reduced by whatever length of rope is used in the anchor.
Makes much more sense in this scenario to build subsequent anchors without incorporating your rope. Having to cut 12 feet off at every station would leave you with some pretty short rappels, not much of a rack when/if you reached the ground, and take a lot more time to build all those additional anchors.
Better to build anchors independent of the rope, conserve your entire rope, and keep options open.
mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120
Steve Levin wrote: In a single-rope, multi-rap rescue scenario it would be quite complicated to build a lower rap anchor incorporating the rope you are rappelling on, especially tandem rappelling with your patient- and your rap distance will be reduced by whatever length of rope is used in the anchor. Makes much more sense in this scenario to build subsequent anchors without incorporating your rope and having to cut 12 feet off at every station... would leave you with some pretty short rappels, not much of a rack when/if you reached the ground, and take a lot more time.
Totally agree, which is why I do carry extra cordalettes on multi- pitch. Just saying that if you don't have the gear you want you can still keep going. Sucks, but it's not game over. You can also improvise with other slings etc, whatever you have that will work, but ultimately if you have to build anchors for descent you are going to lose gear, so:

Steve Levin wrote: not much of a rack when/if you reached the ground,
Circumstantial but if you have to use gear to build anchors to get your patient down isn't this point moot?
Steve Levin · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 952
Ben Hicks wrote: Circumstantial but if you have to use gear to build anchors to get your patient down isn't this point moot?
Absolutely. My point was you may not reach the ground.
mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120

Whole lotta editing going on!

Indeed,

Copascetic Steve.

Steve Levin · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 952
Ben Hicks wrote: you can always cut away the anchor portion of the rope if needed and leave it behind.
Not to beat a dead horse, and I understand your thought process, but if my rope were incorporated into the anchor and I needed to descend in a rescue scenario, I would rebuild the anchor using slings from the protection points my rope is attached to, create a master point independent of the rope, then use my entire rope to descend.
mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120
Steve Levin wrote: Not to beat a dead horse, and I understand your thought process, but if my rope were incorporated into the anchor and I needed to descend in a rescue scenario, I would rebuild the anchor using slings from the protection points my rope is attached to, create a master point independent of the rope, then use my entire rope to descend.
I would too if I had the slings. Or, if quick care was needed i.e. descent to the patient prior to setting up counterbalance rappel, it would be a great opportunity to retrieve gear to use after ascending back to the anchor. It would be unlikely to cut part of the rope off for such a purpose. It is just a resource if needed, and back to Steve R's post, you aren't ultimately "screwed" as in game over just because you used the rope as anchor. Just "sort of".

Sorry to the OP for the digression.

As far as your butterfly/clove anchor, yeah it works. More cumbersome to set up to me than my own version with rope, cloves and a EQ-ing between 3 pieces with doubled overhand. I like the redundancy of a double loop overhand as well rather than master point with single strand. Is it likely realistically that the single strand loop will be a problem? No. I just like the redundancy for piece of mind. And if I tie in to that master point, yes it takes an extra biner. I usually build cordalette anchors though.
wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674

I agree that a cordelette/sling anchor works great when leading in blocks or if I'm doing all the leading. However, a rope anchor works very nicely when swapping leads. I use either depending on the situation.

Anyone who insists that a certain method is "The One True Way" is only showing their noobishness.

How many times have any of you had to counterbalance rappel to rescue your second? I've practiced this but have never had to do it in anger in forty years of multipitch trad climbing.

If I had to ascend the rope to rescue a leader, build a new anchor and counterbalance rappel back down, having initially made an anchor with the rope at my belay station would not make one bit of difference.

Anyway, the OP was not asking about the validity of rope anchors vs cordelettes vs sling anchors. He was simply asking for feedback on this particular rope anchor. I have little doubt he knows how to build other types of anchors and can make an informed choice on when to use each one.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I almost always lead multipitch on double ropes and therefore have many more anchoring and rescue possibilities. But, the OP wasn't asking about that, either.

mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120
wivanoff wrote:If I had to ascend the rope to rescue a leader, build a new anchor and counterbalance rappel back down, having initially made an anchor with the rope at my belay station would not make one bit of difference.
Correct, however, different if it is your second below you that you need to rescue, they have loaded your anchor and that is your bail point.

Anyway, I am not in any way advocating cutting up your rope it if you can avoid it. It's just a valid option if you need it.

Yes, everything being discussed are matters of choice, and having more methods at your disposal can help in different circumstances. Many means to the same ends.

Yep, all matters of choice. That's all.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

It's ok---I like my method better, but of course I would, wouldn't I? I can rig mine faster than shown in the video, and I'm not obliged to correctly estimate and/or adjust the length of a loop that will eventually be clove-hitched to two of the anchor points.

If you are going to belay your second guide-style off the anchor, the differences in the methods are really minor. If, like me, you prefer a harness-level belay(*), then the optimal positioning of the belayer becomes important and in that case my method seems better to me, because it enables the belayer to efficiently and precisely position themselves out of reach of the anchors, a situation in which the need to correctly estimate the size of the butterfly loop is both essential and harder to manage correctly.

(*) I use the term "harness-level belay" because I belay off the rope tie-in loop, not the harness belay loop, and rig the anchor snugly so that the load is transmitted via the tie-in strand to the anchor. The belayer and their harness do not take any of the load, it is really a belay off the anchor, except that the belay device is connected by a the length of climbing rope that serves as the anchor strand for the belayer.

As for self-rescue, it is a nearly pointless distraction. Those techniques are important to learn and practice, but there is almost no chance that they'll ever get used, and many of the more complicated ones just aren't going to work in many real scenarios.

The main reason to learn and practice self-rescue techniques is to have a broad base of knowledge to support the improvisation that almost any real emergency will demand. If you know your stuff and keep your wits about you, then being anchored with the rope is not going to be a problem. That said, there's nothing the matter with having a cordelette or a bunch of slings handy in case an anchor has to be re-rigged without the rope.

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674
rgold wrote:It's ok---I like my method better, but of course I would, wouldn't I? I can rig mine faster than shown in the video, and I'm not obliged to correctly estimate and/or adjust the length of a loop that will eventually be clove-hitched to two of the anchor points.
I dunno. I see that as kind of a wash. There's slack between the cloves for adjustment. Just make the loop big enough to begin with to allow for the adjustment. I see that slack between the cloves as a good place to add another cloved biner for a redirect point - similar to what you showed in your rope anchor. I think your method is a bit more straightforward. But, I haven't tried/practiced MTKirk's method.
Steve Levin · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 952
Ben Hicks wrote: I would too if I had the slings. Or, if quick care was needed i.e. descent to the patient prior to setting up counterbalance rappel, it would be a great opportunity to retrieve gear to use after ascending back to the anchor. It would be unlikely to cut part of the rope off for such a purpose. It is just a resource if needed, and back to Steve R's post, you aren't ultimately "screwed" as in game over just because you used the rope as anchor. Just "sort of". Sorry to the OP for the digression.
Totally agree.
Apologies also to the OP for getting off-track.

ABC, clove-hitch tie-in, Rich Goldstone's system, cordelettes... all good- the more tools in the tool kit, the better....
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "ABC climbing rope belay anchor"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.