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2:1 Haul Setup - Rate my rigging
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By randy88fj62
Apr 25, 2012
Thunderbolt Peak in the Palisades

I am making this thread to show people a 2:1 haul setup and also see what I can do better.Here is my 2:1 haul system setup using Chongoís big wall book as my reference. A 2:1 was chosen over a 3:1 as it will save time hauling the bag and allow my gf to operate the haul system while I would be jugging. I may use a 1:1 later on when food and water have decreased on the second or third day.
The Petzl prusik minding pulley is 97% efficient (theoretical) and weighs .19 lbs. The blue CMI pulley is 95.6% efficient and weighs .45 lbs. And since Iím listing efficiencies, the Petzl pro Traxion has a 91% efficient pulley. I show the Petzl gold ascender in the picture since it could be used as a substitute for the WC ropeman II. I plan on mounting the Traxion to a Frost power draw or using a short dogbone with lockers on it. This should allow the Traxion to pivot and prevent binding. Now consider that the Traxion will be hauling only enough for a 2 night stay on a wall for two people and it should not be seeing any heavy static loads. This setup would be operated with a pedal system meaning that you would pump the haul line up with one leg and reset the ropeman II with the other as needed. I show petzl caving foot straps for simplicity but any set of ladders, etriers, or slings could be used. This leaves your hand to pull the haul line slack through the Traxion.
Question: Am I lacking a safety backup or does the ropeman II count as the backup? I want to make sure that safety is maintained since this type of rigging is new to me. Recommendations to make this setup better are welcomed. Please state how many walls youíve done so I can gauge real responses from people like me who have never been on wall.


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By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Apr 25, 2012
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protect between Bolt 2/3 just post crux . <br /> <br />Picture credit goes to eric Singleton, and many thanks to Josh Bagget for the great belay.

why the two ropes?


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By Larry S
Apr 25, 2012
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

rock_fencer wrote:
why the two ropes?


It's a ratchet system, the left rope is just a short piece that does the lifting and then resets.


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By Mark Hudon
Apr 25, 2012
On the North America Wall in 1977.

Very good set up.

I am a master at 2:1 hauling! I have it singing and can easily haul 250/300 up an overhanging wall.

Your rig is heavier than it needs to be. Your use of the rigging plate is good but not needed. Your pulling cord, your Zed-Cord needs to be only 5 mil Spectra. I tried the Ropeman as the bottom rope grab but the moment it takes to grab the rope gets annoying.


My 2:1 system. Notice how everything is very much in a straight line.
My 2:1 system. Notice how everything is very much in a straight line.


The Pro-Traxion, is too heavy for what you're using it for. If you want to have a bigger sheave pulley around for later 1 to 1 hauling then you're good but all the Pro-trax does is grab the rope, not really using the pulley. I use a Mini-trax in place of it.

Check out a vid of me hauling 250 pounds on the first day of the South Seas last fall.

South Seas 2:1 hauling


Check out my Big Wall Tips and El Cap Route Panoramas site. 2:1 hauling is the next tips sheet I'm writing

El Cap Route Panoramas and Big Wall Tips

18 El Cap routes starting in 1974, 4 in the last 2 years, 2 solos so far and another route and solo coming up this Spring!


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By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Apr 25, 2012
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protect between Bolt 2/3 just post crux . <br /> <br />Picture credit goes to eric Singleton, and many thanks to Josh Bagget for the great belay.

Larry S wrote:
It's a ratchet system, the left rope is just a short piece that does the lifting and then resets.


ah thanks, thats what i figured. i'm just used to hauling with the rope itself


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By Phill T
Apr 25, 2012

2:1 haul
2:1 haul


2:1 haul v2
2:1 haul v2


the first one is what I based my setup off of, the second is what we used on moonlight (its a bit more confusing as both the pull rope and the haul rope are the same color). They are the same basic 2:1 ratchet, just a bit more compact. I am replacing the protrax with a microtrax to save weight and cluster.

you can also take your blue ascender and use it as the device that grabs the rope when you pull (your ropeman). and then for the actual pull cord, just tie a clove or a butterfly and clip that to your belay loop or a foot loop or whatever is appropriate for that particular haul.

Hudon, I love your protip pdfs, things are great at getting a look at a master wallrat's setup. keep em coming!


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By randy88fj62
Apr 25, 2012
Thunderbolt Peak in the Palisades

Mark,
Thank you for the pictures and link. What kind of pulleys are you using with your 5 mm perlon cord? Seems like you could use really small pulleys as long as they are rated for the load. The petzl paw is just there for clarity as an anchor, I won't bring it up the wall.

I own a petzl croll. Could I use that in place of the ropeman or is its orientation a lot different from your petzl basic model which has different mounting configuration?

Do you ever haul 1:1 as your bag gets lighter? The reason I ask is that I have a mini traxion that I could swap out but I would only do so if I didn't plan on hauling 1:1. It's pulley efficiency is 71% and would suck for 1:1 hauling (at least in my head.)

Why is the second ratchet line called a zed line?


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By Mark Hudon
Apr 25, 2012
On the North America Wall in 1977.

Randy,

You still need efficiency even with the 5 mil cord. My pulleys are an SMC Micro (the bottom one) and an SMC 2" sheave Rescue Pulley.

A Croll or a Basic would be perfect. I use a Basic.

No, I never haul 1:1. As the bags get lighter towards the top of the route, I'm getting more and more tired and weak. I've worked myself to death on walls in the past and now my goal is to enjoy them and let my techniques do the hard work for me.

The Zed Cord make a "Z"? I don't know, that's what Pete called it in his Climbing article.


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By randy88fj62
Apr 25, 2012
Thunderbolt Peak in the Palisades

Mark,
Why not use your second main ascender in place of the basic? This would eliminate the need for one more piece of gear.


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By Mark Hudon
Apr 25, 2012
On the North America Wall in 1977.

No reason why you couldn't. When I'm with a partner we usually take only one set though.

Actually that's funny, I just did a big DUH! and forehead slap when I read your post. I could easily save that weight. Good idea!


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By Bud Martin
From Bozeman, MT
Apr 25, 2012

Hudon, two weeks until I'm in the Valley, so get that .pdf up! Seriously, your beta on here and Supertopo are great reading. Thanks.


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By Mark Hudon
Apr 25, 2012
On the North America Wall in 1977.

I'm on it!

In fact, here is a link to it so far. It'll eventually include 1:1 hauling and Far End Hauling for soloing.

El Cap Route Panoramas and Big Wall Tips

Feel free to donate often, or, hell, for that matter, buy a Pano!


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By divnamite
From New York, NY
Apr 25, 2012

What size rope do you all use for the pull cord?

Hudon, saw your video, did you untie yourself from the lead line during the haul?


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By Mark Hudon
Apr 25, 2012
On the North America Wall in 1977.

I use 5 mil Spectra as my Zed Cord.

I had just jugged up there from the ground. I didn't untie but was never tied in. I was clipped in to the anchor with two daisies, same as if I would be soloing.

Bear in mind also, that that is me, all 130 pounds of me, hauling bags that easily total 250+ pounds. You can see the effort to haul is equal to the effort of doing a squat.


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By Greg G
From SLC, UT
Apr 25, 2012
The route in it's entirety.

so mark to you tag up your haul set up or do you keep it in a small bag clipped to you? seems like a bunch of stuff to carry up with you while on lead.


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By Mark Hudon
Apr 25, 2012
On the North America Wall in 1977.

That is one bummer of the system, there is no way around the fact that it's heavy. It's only 2 pounds (actual weight) and I carry it all set up in a Fish Beef Bag. I clip it to my harness and carry it for the whole pitch. Really, after a full-on big wall rack, it's a non issue.

Here is a shot of Max leading with it on the Bering Straits on the South Seas/Pacific Ocean Wall last year.

Max Jones on the Bering Straits.
Max Jones on the Bering Straits.


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By Greg G
From SLC, UT
Apr 25, 2012
The route in it's entirety.

that's what i figured you did. generally speaking if i were to not carry a small water bottle i would simply replace the weight with the haul system. my only reservation is that on free climbing pitches (my aid experience has yet to exceed c2) the set up could be cumbersome and get in the way, no?


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By Mark Hudon
Apr 25, 2012
On the North America Wall in 1977.

On South Seas/PO I got all the free climbing and really, it was no worse than free climbing some pitch somewhere (on the Nose or Salathe, DNB or Astroman) with a big rack.


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By Greg G
From SLC, UT
Apr 25, 2012
The route in it's entirety.

right on that is good to know. i love to quote you reference by PTPP that goes something like "we win by attrition mark. we're old bulls we don't run up and knock us off a cow, we walk up and nail them all." i reference it because it reminds me to take my time go slightly heavier than i want, and top out due to diligence. not bail due to arrogance. hence my wanting to tote a more effective hauling rig.


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By Bretterick Briggs
From Salt Lake City, UT
Apr 27, 2012
Drinking breakfast before climbing the elephant perch

Peton Pete is Canadian. Up there they say the letter 'z' as zed. If you are in the states you would call it a Z line.

The more you know...


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By Bretterick Briggs
From Salt Lake City, UT
Apr 27, 2012
Drinking breakfast before climbing the elephant perch

  • Piton


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By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
Jun 21, 2012
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex Huber

Good laughs and good info and photos in this post! It is gratifying to hear that some of you Young Bulls really do know the Story of the Young Bull and the Old Bull.

Now Hudon and I are both Old Bulls - we do indeed win by attrition. Currently he is in a state of winning [by recruiting the Young Bull Cheyne to drag him up Shortest Straw] whilst I sit with a can of beer in Yosemite Village having bailed. Might have had something to do with a Young Bull, but then again, maybe knott.

So I think I'll start at the top, answer the questions in order, and then I will add some *new stuff* that probably wasn't included in that old Climbing Mag post. I will comment on some of the Big Wall Theory above, and offer suggestions to improve efficiency. I just climbed Grape Race and led most of the pitches, meaning I also hauled most of the pitches, using the 2:1 up a rather horrific low-angle slab. But it's a decent route, not very hard, really. So this season I am at least 1 fer 2.

Chongo invented this system, and I haven't seen him since I put the Tech Tip in Climbing Mag, I did apologize to him for not crediting him in the mag article. That was an oversight. Chongo knows stuff, and a hundred bucks for his big wall book will save you a thousand bucks in effort. Mention my name when you order it.

In almost every situation, a 3:1 haul is overkill. While you can make a 3:1 hauling ratchet [see Chongo's book] most people put the pulleys right on the haul line. This is a colossal pain in the ass - hard to set up, and you have to keep doing this "reset" which in certain situations like where there is a ledge or rub point close to your anchors, almost impossible. Accordingly, you need to stick to the 2:1. You should, however, have the 3:1 arrow in your quiver. I remember soloing Native Son when my pigs swung round an arete, and the 2:1 wouldn't budge them. Similarly high on NA Wall - or maybe the Ranch? - I needed that extra leverage of the 3:1. Rare but every now and then, well, you know.

And yes, it's a Zed Cord. We speak the Queen's English here, eh?

The 2:1 Hauling Ratchet consists of two components. The first component is your "Holding Ratchet" which is your "compound pulley" using Chongo parlance. This could be a Pro-Trax, Mini-Trax, Wall Hauler, Kong Block-Roll, Micro-Trax, you name it. They all work. Whatever you use for a 1:1 hauling system will work. The key point to remember here is it doesn't matter a Donkey's Dong* what type of compound pulley you use, because in the 2:1 it only holds the rope. So its efficiency is irrelevant. Get it?

If you get it, proceed to the following paragraphs. If you don't get it, you'd better ask.

  • I just made up that term. Like it?

The thing about the Hauling Ratchet is that it is really its own backup - if the Zed Cord were to break, you have the holding ratchet = compound pulley holding everything. But if the compound pulley were to fail, you still have everything held with the Zed Cord. So generally speaking, no backups are required.*

The time you should have a backup is when you are space hauling. This means that someone is jugging the free end of the haul line to apply additional counterweight, be it 1:1 hauling, or be it using the Hauling Ratchet on top of the 1:1 hauling. In this case, you should pass a Yates Screamer around the haul line, just in case the main pulley = holding ratchet = compound pulley fails. As well, the dude [or dudette] jugging the free end of the haul line should be tied in with a separate "Hose Line" = backup. So he sits on the rope and applies counterweight while the hauler operates the 2:1, until such time as he lowers twenty or thirty feet to the end of his backup, at which point he shouts "Hosed!" and begins jugging the haul line. The hauler takes this opportunity to rest. While applying counterweight, the space hauler counterweight dude should be "pulling himself down the weighted haul line" as he drops. Each pound he pulls up on the weighted haul line adds two pounds of force to the system, because it decreases the weight of the pig by a pound while adding a pound to his own downward force. He should also pull the weighted haul line outwards to reduce friction on the rock.

Oh geez, how many walls have I done? Guesses, please. The closest gets a beer on the bridge! More significantly, what is the number of nights I have spent on El Cap? Big number lately. What this proves is that I know how to haul - I mean, I *really* know how to haul stuff.

Now buddy's 2:1 at the top of the page is actually pretty good, with a couple of exceptions. First, Mark has already described why the Ropeman is no good for the inverted ascender. I have never tried this, so didn't know the answer. Mark does a pretty good job doing most of my work for me these days, thus sparing me the bother, but fortunately he still needs my editing skills. This, combined with the fact that he likes writing trip reports and refuses to retire from big wall climbing and is super generous and a nice guy, virtually ensures a lifetime supply of Hood River Coffee. I enjoyed a nice brew of that stuff this morning. He even made up my own PTPP Blend with a picture of me on the label and everything!




Now the Frost Draw thingy that I spoke of in the old Tech Tip is almost impossible to find any more, but you could substitute a wired stopper in its stead. Basically you're just trying to minimize the amount of Zed Cord in the system, and keep the pulleys close to coming together below the inverted ascender cam. Really, it's not all that critical. I use only the Kong Block-Roll for hauling, as it is far and away the best hauling device, and because it is big [and klunky, but damn efficient] you don't need to lower it. But I wouldn't get all hung up about the Frost Draw thingy. FAR more important are a couple more things I will talk about below, which are pulley orientation, which pulley goes where, and something about practising.

Voice of Spanish Inquisition: "Three things! There are THREE things!"

For buddy's top photo, replace the Ropeman with either the gold Petzl Ascension [handled] ascender, or even a Petzl Basic, which is what I use. The Basic is so small, I just leave it on. The Ascension is nice because it has a handle.

Throw away that P.O.S. Pro-Traxion! Do you know how many parties I have met at the base of El Cap who have bailed because that crappy thing has failed?! Get yourself a Kong Block-Roll for 1:1 hauling. If you can't find one, email me, I can probably get you one. The Eye-Talians must row them across the Atlantic, but every few months I can get you one.

Now Mark may be the Self Declared Master at hauling, and for a necky little bugger he sure can haul a lot of stuff, but believe it or knott, there are a number of improvements that can made to his setup. Note that his setup works for him, and the Better Way is whatever works best for you, so who am I to criticize? But if this is to be the definitive textbook scenario, then let's examine his setup:


1) Mark's Holding Ratchet is a Mini-Trax. This is as good as anything, but as described above, it doesn't matter a Donkey's Whatever what device he uses. But it's hanging too low! [Donkey Dongs do that, you know] Look at how much Zed Cord there is between his anchor and the inverted ascender pulley! So much extra cord - just knott needed.

2) I like his Basic

3) I love his coffee.

4) The blue Ascension handled ascender on the free end of the haul line is great because you can grab it to pull yourself up, and pull the haul line through the Mini. Note that with your other hand on the inverted ascender, by pushing down on the Basic, you can pull yourself up each stroke with a 2:1 mechanical advantage.

5) The 5.5mm static Spectra cord is emphatically KNOTT recommended by Dr. Piton! While *in theory* it is great because it does not stretch, in practice the stuff is scary because IT BREAKS. If you have ever snapped your hauling ratchet cord, you will know what I mean! I strongly recommend you use 7mm perlon, as it is far less likely to "surprise" you. The reduction in efficiency is negligible, and I almost think that the stuff is more efficient than Spectra because it bends more easily.

6) There is NO sixth thing!

7) No poofdahs, especially on my portaledge, mate

Now, let's talk about pulleys.

Here is your Dr. Piton Question of the Day: You have two pulleys for your hauling ratchet Zed Cord - a "good" pulley, and a "not so good" pulley. Which one do you put on top, and which one do you put on the bottom? This is FUNDAMENTAL. Stay tuned next week - same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel.....


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By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
Jun 21, 2012
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex Huber

OK, so now we're talking about pulleys on the Zed Cord. We have already determined that it doesn't matter a Donkey's Dong* which type of device you use as your Holding Ratchet. But does it matter which pulley you use where on your Zed Cord?

Answer: Arrange the following words into a well known phrase or saying:

"Yeah"

"Hell"

OK, so why? Answer - Frig, I don't freaking know! Do you know how many beers I've had today??? OK Ok, I think it has to do with how many spins the pulley makes. The top one spins more, so it has to be better, right? This sounds good *in theory* but does it translate to real wall experience?

Accordingly, Dr. Piton set up the following test in his basement. We took the regular 2:1 Chongo Hauling Ratchet, and we checked the position of the "good" pulley vs. the "bad" pulley. Each has its place, both on the wall and in the basement. Sort of like "good" girls and "bad" girls. [Either you get it or you don't]

So in the interests of science, we replaced one pulley with a carabiner, and considered the carabiner to be the "bad" pulley.

In photo #1 which you see below, the "bad" pulley = carabiner is on top of the Zed Cord:



Dang. Sorry. Wrong photo. That was a different scientific experiment. However, do I have your attention???

OK, here's the right photo:



Here we have buddy as a counterweight, and I have put the "bad pulley" = carabiner on top, and the "good" pulley [the blue one] on the bottom. As you can see, I and my crab are pulling rather hard, but to no avail.

Next, we put the "good" blue pulley on top, and the "bad pulley" = carabiner on the bottom, and here you can see the result:



Pretty casual, eh? So put your "good" pulley on top, and your "not good" pulley on the bottom.



See? Clearly, it's the Better Way.


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By "Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok
From Oakville, Ontario
Jun 21, 2012
Left to right - me, Sam Adams, Thomas Huber, Alex Huber

OK, so far, so good, eh?

JP just poured me a margarita. Sheesh. Talk about drowning one's bail sorrows, eh?

Anyhoo...

Incidentally .... does anyone know what happened to Ricardo ... ? He used ... to use ... a lot of ... ellisions...

The Croll is the ultimate ascender for Jugging the Froggy Way, which is far and away the Better Way to ascend a free hanging rope. It was developed by cavers - Petzl - and if you ever want to know how to ascend a fixed rope, ask a caver. Cavers - pale anemic offspring from the darker world - have nothing better to do with their time than perfect their jugging systems - under bridges, in caves, etc etc. The Croll is fundamental. Somewhere on this forum is the post. Could someone please provide the link? [thus sparing me the bother]

Right. Where are we?

Right. Zipping. I can't believe that anyone would carry a 2:1 with them on lead! I use a 7.8mm Bluewater half rope as a zipline, which is sufficient to haul the gear piggy, and the top[s] of the haul line[s]. The 2:1 is right on top of the gear piggy. I figure if I have a partner, he can zip stuff up to me. I hate wearing heavy stuff. However it is definitely faster, if you are stronger and burlier than me.

Mark can free climb and everything. Except when he doesn't manage his finger strength accordingly, and can't pull the easiest stuff [for him]. This was very YB-ish of him, and is a reminder to you all that you can only do what you can only do. It was smart that Mark called for a toprope when he was toasted. But stuff happens, right?

Greg - if you tell the YB and the OB story on the bridge, I owe you a few Cobras!

Oh, thank goodness I have reached the bottom of the post. Hmm, now I have to think of a few things:

Thing #1) Put a pair of non-locking carabiners on your Zed-Cord in a clove hitch, and attach these crabs to your belay doughnut. This will allow you to "fine tune" your hauling ratchet stroke to the ideal length

Thing #2) Practise! Practise! Practise! This is not as intuitive as you think! Go to your favourite crag, and practise hauling bags of rocks. Choose rocks with smooth curves, not sharp corners, and make sure your pig is lined with closed cell foam. When you finish hauling, practise rappelling with a heavy load. You *do* know how to do this, right? Rapping with two or three times your body weight? If knott, ask. Set up a separate post here, and email me.

Thing #3) Positioning of the pulleys, Zed-Cord and holding ratchet aka cmpound pulley is critical. There are four possible orientations - three are wrong, and one is right. So figure out what I mean.

Thing #4) You really need to figure out the Better Way to position your body when 2:1 hauling. Are you standing in aiders, or on a ledge? If you are on a ledge, where is your 1:1 hauling device located? Generally speaking, you may equalize a couple of bolts, and set your hauling device on this power point. Say the bolts are six feet above the ledge, but when you equalize them, your hauling device is now only three feet above the ledge. What this means is that your haul line now runs over a much sharper edge. Instead, consider putting the hauling device right on the bolt carabiner [always use a separate carabiner to maintain degrees of freedom!] and hauling straight off the bolt. Obviously, choose a "good" 3/8-incher. And then you should connect your hauling bolt to the other bolt, just in case.

Thing #5) Got any questions? Just ask. This is the place.

Thing #6) There is NO sixth thing!

Thing #7) Um.......


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By randy88fj62
Jun 22, 2012
Thunderbolt Peak in the Palisades

Thanks for the input so far.

I noticed the recent activity in this thread and thought I would post up my updated hauling setup. Between my initial post and now I was able to do the first three pitches of the South Face of Washington Column up to dinner ledge. My mentor had a bruised toe so I lead all three pitches and hauled all three. It was my first time in a true big wall situation and it was tough yet enjoyable. I drank/needed too much water and aided too slow but I assume thatís how we all start out?

Here is the setup I plan to use for my gf and I when we make an attempt at our first wall this September. I am assuming its ok to use rapides? (climbing rated, not home depot.) They are used widely in caving and other vertical activities. I did this to reduce bulk and weight. The only downside is that the system cannot be taken apart on a momentís notice and altered without pulling out a wrench. I used a petzl croll instead of a basic because that is what I own. I removed the WC Ropeman II from the setup because it required that the user remove the ascender from the system each time you are installing and breaking down. This creates a risk of it being dropped.

I do not know the efficiency of the camp pulley that I picked up for cheap so Iím not sure which one to put where. I will need to check that and compare it to the petzl prusik minding pulley I have on there.


Any critique or thoughts on this setup?


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By tex
Jun 22, 2012

nice 40's!!!!


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