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Was asked to post this here

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
wfscot wrote: I think it's missing the point entirely to simply say "oh well, bad placement" and move on.
exactly.

Julian - if it's supposed to break there how come we haven't see this more often? Was the wire stem supposed to be threaded fully (ie not empty air pocket) or do all aliens have this void in the top of the stem? Was the metal malformed? I think there's more to it then, ya they're supposed to do that which basically how I read your response. And that being the case I wouldnt want a cam that has catastrophic failure built into it.

I'm surprised the tip of the stem is hollow to be honest.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

That cam didn't fail because of a bad braze. All I'm saying is that if I place the same cam the same way and fall I expect it to fail.

It is wiser to lean how to use the gear properly than blame the manufacturers. I know it sucks when gear fails.

Yesterday, I saw a guy belaying the second from the of the climb with a CAMP belay plate OVO in the auto-locking mode. All good except that he set the anchor 7 or 8 feet below the higher place of of the climb. So the rope would go over bulge and straight down to the anchor that was waist high. The setup completely negate the auto-locking mode that he tried to set up. He was really chatty and kept the his hand on the brake end of the rope so I didn't say anything.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Morgan Patterson wrote: exactly. Julian - if it's supposed to break there how come we haven't see this more often? Was the wire stem supposed to be threaded fully (ie not empty air pocket) or do all aliens have this void in the top of the stem? Was the metal malformed? I think there's more to it then, ya they're supposed to do that which basically how I read your response. And that being the case I wouldnt want a cam that has catastrophic failure built into it. I'm surprised the tip of the stem is hollow to be honest.
Honestly, if I start thinking this way I will never leave my bed. Or start soloing because I can't trust any pice of gear on the market. Except my shoes and chalk. But does my chalk has the right amount of MgCO3? Will my shoes delaminate in the middle of the climb ....................

Talking about shoes. Do you guys have resoled shoes recently? Beside the 3 week wait, the last pair I resoled the made them so rounded they look like hiking boots. I know one person that had to take back her Katanas for the same reason.
J Roatch · · Leavenworth, WA · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 162

Wow, this is surprising. Won't be buying those anytime soon.

It's good to know your gear. Now that I know that aliens are weak shit, I won't buy them. I've seen cams break before, and it's been obvious user error. This really sounds like a mix of user error and poor equipment. I wasn't there though.

I will say, I haven't heard of mastercams having this problem.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
JulianG wrote: Or start soloing because I can't trust any piece of gear on the market.
I think the point you could draw is this isn't an issue with other manufactures. Is the tip of the stem supposed to be hollow? If you dont know the answer then I would suggest you might take a step back and reconsider that maybe this wasn't just poor placement. It looks to me as though the tip wasnt mfg properly.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Morgan Patterson wrote: I think the point you could draw is this isn't an issue with other manufactures. Is the tip of the stem supposed to be hollow? If you dont know the answer then I would suggest you might take a step back and reconsider that maybe this wasn't just poor placement. It looks to me as though the tip wasnt mfg properly.
Looks again at the photo. The tip of the stem doesn't look hallow to me the wire extends past the break point into the end of the stem.

anyway, this post looks like someone having a vendetta against aliens or how ever owns the now. It wouldn't be the first one in the climbing community
ebmudder · · Bronx, NY · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 55
JulianG wrote: Looks again at the photo. The tip of the stem doesn't look hallow to me the wire extends past the break point into the end of the stem. anyway, this post looks like someone having a vendetta against aliens or how ever owns the now. It wouldn't be the first one in the climbing community
It is well reported here that as Aliens have changed owners over the years there have been QC issues and recalls, and the current owner has provided some poor customer service also reported here.

But this thread has drifted into "fixe-hating" on the mftr instead of helping noobs understand why gear fails catastrophically when it's placed incorrectly. Just because this Alien snapped in a hard fall doesn't mean other cams wouldn't fail catastrophically in the same placement with the same forces, or just pull out, leading to the same "yur gonna die" outcome.

Climbing gear is generally tested with the forces it's supposed to encounter in proper use. Cars are crash-tested for the most common types of accidents...no one drops a 5-ton weight on a car's roof and says "the roof fell in and the occupants are dead, so there must be a defect in the design of the car."

Cams are tested the same way...maybe i'm being naive, but why would the manufacturer test to failure in an orientation they're telling you not to use in the first place? And if it does fail catastrophically, shouldn't we be discussing how to properly place the gear? The real defect here is expecting something work beyond it's intended design parameters and then being surprised when it fails.
Michael Brady · · Wenatchee, WA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,316
ebmudder wrote: and the current owner has provided some poor customer service also reported here. .
Just to clarify, Fixe owns the Alien line now, not Kevin Daniels
Macks Whineturd · · Squaw · Joined May 2016 · Points: 0

black alien in a perfect placement = maybe good for falling on
black alien in poor placement = body weight only or you'll break it in half

mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
Brassmonkey wrote:Issues they've had for a very long time... (6ish years ago) "Also, here is a cross-section photo of an Alien braze failure from outside of the recall (middle of the pic is the cam that failed at the braze):"
The middle picture shows a SNAPPED cable at the braze termination of the head tube. It doesn't show a braze failure.

The below image is of a braze failure. The wire PULLED out of the tube, it did not snap.


As noted above, this is a weakness in this particular style of head termination. The braze exiting the head makes the wire act like a solid stem cam; it simply is not flexible. So, if the cam is loaded so that the stem bends at the joint, it will break. This is, again, why it's so important that you try to load the cam inline with the stem with as little bending or torque as possible. Loading a forged friend stem over and edge (or a carabiner) has the same effect.

The difference with the braze snapping or the above head snap vs say, a C4 loaded improperly is a matter of materials, thickness, ductility and where they're loaded. Smaller C4s have a thick, solid, swage-terminated head. If you load them in a manner similar to the above black alien (incorrectly) , the thicker C4 swage head on the smaller C4s likely can take that bending motion better than the Alien head. You'll probably see mangled axels instead as the double axel design is inherently weaker in the smaller sizes vs single axel.
If you're wanting the most "durable" cam for improper placements, I'd lean towards the Totems, Zero Cams or Master Cams. Totems rock but the Zero and Master give up something vs Totem Basic / Alien style. I know the trade offs and am willing to accept them.

While the brazing is certainly something to watch out for, swaged head terminations common in many other cams are not immune to repetitive bending risks in this same area.

This thread has more details: Mtn Proj BMC wire breakage

mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
ebmudder wrote: The real defect here is expecting something work beyond it's intended design parameters and then being surprised when it fails.
This^

It's worth also noting that the above Black Alien is rated to 5kN in ideal conditions. We're talking semi-marginal gear when well placed.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
mattm wrote: This^ It's worth also noting that the above Black Alien is rated to 5kN in ideal conditions. We're talking semi-marginal gear when well placed.
Do you know if a cam similar to Metolius Power Cam would be more durable in this situation? Because of he U-Shaped body style
mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
JulianG wrote: Do you know if a cam similar to Metolius Power Cam would be more durable in this situation? Because of he U-Shaped body style
I'd be making nothing more than a W.A.Guess on that one so...

There are some good anecdotes in this UKC thread on small cam weaknesses. Note Mike Beardy's comments: He worked as one of the designers on the new WC friends and has had some good comments on the site over there as well. He comments on most of the small cams out there right now save WC Zeros (maybe he's working on a new design there?)

UKC Small Cam Failure Thread

I'll pull out some his comments regarding a 0.4 C4 that ripped and bent lobes. Emphasis my own. The entire thread is worth the read however as he does have more insights.
Mike Beardy:

This is what I've been banging on about for years now. Dual axle cams have a sodding great big hole through the cam lobe so when you load them at high load they crush flat. On small cams the metal that joins the two halves of the cam is thin - it has to be for the lobe to operate the way you want it to - geometry dictates it. So in a perfectly normal fall you can generate enough force for this to occur. Of course once the cam lobes flatten they crush down onto the axles, If you're lucky this will be sufficient to support the fall. If not it will pull. In a poor placement where the cams are locked into position by the geometry of the crack i,e back up against the back of the crack and you manage to side load the placement you can quite easily shear the lobe in two. It's exactly why when we did the WC cams we stopped at 0.5 and didn't go lower. Infact I didn't really personally want to do the 0.5 either. Solid cam lobes i.e. single axle (including the small x4s) don't have this issue as there is sufficient metal to support the forces as fo large double axle cams. But even the large double axle cams fail in funky ways albeit at high load...

...what I'm saying is that the ultimate failure mode of nearly all double axle cams is that the cam bulges linearly(ish) along the length of the slot, then flattens and then breaks, often at either end of the slot or both. This is for a cam being tested in a metal cheeked jig and under controlled conditions. For large sizes this is at high force as it is geometrically possible to locate more material at the ends of the slot, at small sizes this is at lower but still acceptable force. And when I say a normal force we are talking up to the rated level. Beyond that point what I am say occurs.

But bear in mind that small cams are rated at lower levels, typically between 8kn and 10kn. And then also consider that these ratings are for a perfect placement with load being applied linearly, that you have no side loading of the lobe. In a perfectly normal climbing scenario when a climber is underpressure and makes a less than perfect placement, it is entirely feasible to load a cam lobe sufficiently to break it as that less than perfect placement can add a side loading into the equation. if you cut a hole in the middle of pretty much anything it makes it weaker. Especailly a big hole...

[asked what's better, single or double axel] It's really difficult to say yes or no to that question. From a purely mechanical perspective single axle cams are more stable in horizontal placements, they are easier to place correctly (i.e. not offset thus rendering the forces on each axle unequal) and the cams are much less likely to buckle and fold under load, and they are lighter so you can take an extra piece. However a double axle cam is easier to place in the sense that you are more likely to get the right piece, it has better range (although I feel this is somewhat overstated especially at the small end of the range - through good design you can achieve not far off the range of double axle cams with a singleaxle) and they are somehow very reassuring. They also don't overcam easily and the lobes can't invert when you're taking them out.

Personally in the small sizes, without a shadow of doubt in my mind single axle is superior. The simpler lobe geometry allows the use of softer metals adding to the grip, they can't shear in side on placements and the other associated problems like the lobes inverting on retrieval are much reduced so as to basically be negligile. Added to that the smaller gain in terms of range and the fact that there are aspects about BD's design which are distinctly poor and you've got your answer. At larger sizes, say camalot 0.5 or more it's less clearly defined. and it's more down to personal preference. It's only at the really large that that then breaks down again where again because of the large lobes you start to see problems with buckling again so you have to design the lobe right to avoid sideways buckling. But that's beyond the size that most people use.

Of what's on the market right at this moment in time, [I'd choose] Totem basics up to 0.5 camalot equivalent and probably a double axle cam from there on in. For me, Totems seem far superior in quality to either of the Fixe offerings. After that I'd look at the Metolius UL TCU which is an awesome piece of kit. I've had 3 TCU's since 1999 and used them a huge amount - still going strong. Looking a it worn now but never had a trigger cable fail and they go in very narrow slots. All these products though must be well oiled and kept "up".
-End Selection

The thread is well worth a read.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Mike Brady wrote: Just to clarify, Fixe owns the Alien line now, not Kevin Daniels
Both seem to provide the same shite customer service regardless of who owns or distributes what.
Muscrat · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 3,625
Ray Pinpillage wrote: Both seem to provide the same shite customer service regardless of who owns or distributes what.
And i was just researching the difference between slander and libel. That my friend, is, i believe, libel.
I have known and done business with K.D. for years, and although he can be gruff at times (he is a busy man and brooks no shit) he runs a great business, or 4, and does an admirable job supplying us with great product. That there was failure due either to the operator or the producer is not his (K.D.) job or business to determine.
I have not read the numerous pages of this post, hence do not know how we got from gear failure to denigrating people (not uncommon on MP, sadly) but how about we try and stay on topic?
And maybe even keep the vitriol to a low hummm!!!!
Michael Brady · · Wenatchee, WA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,316
Muscrat wrote: And i was just researching the difference between slander and libel. That my friend, is, i believe, libel. I have known and done business with K.D. for years, and although he can be gruff at times (he is a busy man and brooks no shit) he runs a great business, or 4, and does an admirable job supplying us with great product. That there was failure due either to the operator or the producer is not his (K.D.) job or business to determine. I have not read the numerous pages of this post, hence do not know how we got from gear failure to denigrating people (not uncommon on MP, sadly) but how about we try and stay on topic? And maybe even keep the vitriol to a low hummm!!!!
+1

Or we could just place cams at a 90deg orientation and hypothesize and blame all day.
Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
Muscrat wrote: And i was just researching the difference between slander and libel. That my friend, is, i believe, libel. I have known and done business with K.D. for years, and although he can be gruff at times (he is a busy man and brooks no shit) he runs a great business, or 4, and does an admirable job supplying us with great product. That there was failure due either to the operator or the producer is not his (K.D.) job or business to determine. I have not read the numerous pages of this post, hence do not know how we got from gear failure to denigrating people (not uncommon on MP, sadly) but how about we try and stay on topic? And maybe even keep the vitriol to a low hummm!!!!
Is outing your customers on the internet good customer service or complete shite? Seems like shite to me. Maybe your friend should suffer less fools and hire someone that understands CS AND PR, there is clearly a problem.
JeffL · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 65
Alien lobe

Lobe 2

I did this about a month ago, I think just French freeing, no fall on it. I can pull the smallest lobe off with my fingers.

Failed alien
Michael Brady · · Wenatchee, WA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,316
Ray Pinpillage wrote: Is outing your customers on the internet good customer service or complete shite?
If your customer is a completely F-ing idiot then I would consider it a public service.

The customer is not always right.
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Muscrat wrote: And i was just researching the difference between slander and libel. That my friend, is, i believe, libel. I have known and done business with K.D. for years, and although he can be gruff at times (he is a busy man and brooks no shit) he runs a great business, or 4, and does an admirable job supplying us with great product. That there was failure due either to the operator or the producer is not his (K.D.) job or business to determine. I have not read the numerous pages of this post, hence do not know how we got from gear failure to denigrating people (not uncommon on MP, sadly) but how about we try and stay on topic? And maybe even keep the vitriol to a low hummm!!!!
That's all fine I guess, but from what I have witnessed, whenever K.D. posts, he is in general condescending and totally unhelpful. And IIRC, he was insistent for a while about continuing to sell garbage bolts despite many folks pointing out to him that the bolts were crap, which is totally unacceptable. You can correct me if I'm wrong here and I will amend my post, but otherwise I would say that selling crap bolts as a "major distributor" is a completely negligent business practice; i.e. if you call that "great" business, then I guess we have different definitions of the word "great".
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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