What have sport climbers done wrong?

Stick it to them Pil ...but your dealing with many folk who want the inside outside.

Pil Jungli wrote: Who is more irresponsible? The glue addicted, grade obsessed sporters or the adrenalin junkie fear addicted traddists?

The belligerent, trolling forum user.

However, a close second place could go to the grammar nazi who takes your bait.

Tim Lutz

I'm not anti bolts everywhere. Not at all. It's just that particular area in which it didn't seem right. Other areas like Badami seemed natural for sport as the rock lends itself to it.

Personal insults aside boulderers are doing nothing to harm the environment in India compared to everybody else. Hundreds of boulders every day get destroyed, millions of trees get cut for firewood and building materials nearby and you are complaining about people squashing a plant with a boulder mat? Get a grip!

Hell those 'trustafarians' have to do some wierd stuff to survive!

Into the fire

Pil...Do not take too much notice of these posters (posers) ....they are folk who think climbing was invented when they started climbing about four years ago.

Pil Jungli wrote: It's just that particular area in which it didn't seem right.

What is the target audience for climbing in the area?
Gear protected climbing usually has a rather steep threshold associated with it - traditional rack will set you back around 1-2 thousand US dollars, compared to 100 USD for a sport rack. Of course, it costs quite a bit of change to bolt something - roughly 10USD per bolt, but that cost is usually shared, or, perhaps, even skipped if developed on grant money.
Then you have to ask yourself - are preserving this climbing area for rich locals or for rich Westerners?
I am surprised that Westerners you are referring to are eager to chip and glue - that hasn't been the ethic for a long time.

Karnataka (Hampi) is a special case as far as rock type goes. It has got amazing looking faces and steep, even overhanging walls but there are a lot of flakes some of which will not hold. If you bolt in this area one flake will come off and change the whole route. Then you will want to glue it back on. The target audience is bouldering. It's special for that, world class. Trad routes and jam cracks come to hand also which makes it interesting for people with gear. Cracks you can find every day if you want. Gnarly odd widths, hand cracks or finger jams.
Mental baba

I know trad gear is costly for locals but people can share also. I offered to
share my gear with people and in the end it's cheaper than putting bolts. With a trad rack all the local climbers and visitors in an area can do as much as they like if they share.

So I make that unlimited trad routes for 1000 dollars or 10 or 20 sport routes. I wanted to preserve this area for the poor locals and kids firstly, the rich 'middle class tourist sport climbers' and the rich local business people trying to cheat the locals can go and ...stay in places without any garbage.

Tim Lutz wrote: The impact on the environment under boulders IS a significant on wildlife and visually to people not into climbing. It is debate-able if it as much of an impact as sport climbing.

The last time I went to Flagstaff in Boulder there were beer bottles all over the place in areas where people don't climb. There are less climbers visiting Golden State Park than hikers or hunters but I found discarded water bottles. So unless human not climbers stop going outdoors we are doing to trash the place because that is what we do.

Tim Lutz

If you are not against bolts, why did you title the post the way did and bring up routes from 20 years ago referred in your rambling blog?
The 'nothing to harm the environment compared to worldwide devastation' argument can just as easily be used to justify bolts, glue and even chipping.
The impact on the environment under boulders IS a significant on wildlife and visually to people not into climbing. It is debate-able if it as much of an impact as sport climbing.

It's only bolts in Hampi I'm against not elsewhere or everywhere. I brought up those routes in the story 'rambling blog' to try and explain why I began to think like that in the first place.

As far as non climbers go in India bolts look very different to boulders done naturally (mostly above plantless rock plateaus) or trad routes which after the rain don't look any different. I used to think like a sport climber also and see routes everywhere and imagine the bolts (yes in hampi also) but sometimes it's good to see it from a non climbers eyes. It looks strange to them. It took me some time to understand that. Trad and bouldering seems more logical to them.

In India it's nothing destroyed under the boulder compared to whats going on with tree and rock cutting for other purposes. That's the sad thing for real.

Peace

Pil Jungli wrote: Cracks you can find every day if you want. Gnarly odd widths, hand cracks or finger jams. Mental baba

Open link; see no photos; immediately close window

Some people like reading accounts of routes being climbed. It can give much more of an idea about the route than a photo. Sorry I don't have any though it's a brilliant line.

Wow. Okay, this has some heated emotions. First of all, what is the idea of a 'local'? Being from India, I'm not so big on the idea that an 'outsider' cannot interfere. I mean, someone who knows the land, loves it and has put time into it can feel a sense of belonging there. Politically, we're identified by our passports...but its really so much more that that right?

Pil's put in years of exploration and development in India. That deserves a special kind of respect. Most climbers in India feel that for him, and then some. Now about bolting in Hampi...I feel it's a bit about discretion and understanding if doing something will get the sport itself viewed in negative light. Understand the rock, the possibilities and maybe acquaint yourself with people who've spent years climbing there. It's not about permission or anything, just about gaining perspective before doing something, that's all. Nobody owns anything really. I mean, Hampi's rock was there well before political boundaries, so the whole concept of rights to things we haven't particularly created is a bit...well...

Okay, I'm jumping in here. Let me just start, I dont much care about these rocks, I have no skin kn the game amd the idea of clkmbing ethics is, silly to me at best. I'm not an old account and I've not been climbing for too long.

Now that that is out of the way, the account above me is totally fake, right? We can agree with that? The TC for the most part has been losing his argument for the last few posts, not seeing the hypocrisy of claiming to be fighting against the importation of friends ides while simultaneously espousing UK crack climbing ethics. Then suddenly, a totally authentic Indian guy from the part of India that's being discussed and is totally a climber makes an account, goes to the forum and totally agrees with the TC. Hmmmmm HMMMMMMMMM

Okay, I haven't been climbing long. I'm a gumbi, whatever. Knwo what I have been doing for a long time? Posting online, visiting forums, being a nerd. And I've seen this same scenario play out so many times. Look guy, don't make a fake account to agree with you. It's pathetic. Articulate your thoughts and accept when people don't agree!

C. Archibald wrote:Only alpine climbing, like what they do on Everest, really respects the local populations.

You must be joking or trolling.

ICTOAN wrote:Okay, I'm jumping in here. Let me just start, I dont much care about these rocks, I have no skin kn the game amd the idea of clkmbing ethics is, silly to me at best. I'm not an old account and I've not been climbing for too long. Now that that is out of the way, the account above me is totally fake, right? We can agree with that? The TC for the most part has been losing his argument for the last few posts, not seeing the hypocrisy of claiming to be fighting against the importation of friends ides while simultaneously espousing UK crack climbing ethics. Then suddenly, a totally authentic Indian guy from the part of India that's being discussed and is totally a climber makes an account, goes to the forum and totally agrees with the TC. Hmmmmm HMMMMMMMMM Okay, I haven't been climbing long. I'm a gumbi, whatever. Knwo what I have been doing for a long time? Posting online, visiting forums, being a nerd. And I've seen this same scenario play out so many times. Look guy, don't make a fake account to agree with you. It's pathetic. Articulate your thoughts and accept when people don't agree!

I'm with you on this. This whole conversation is simply some guy trying to get hits...

Losing the argument? Okay if you think it's right to start bolting in other countries in front of people who consider it wrong like geological survey of India and UNESCO then I've lost already. Not every body thinks it's a good thing.
If you don't care about those rocks or climbing ethics then why bother to comment on it? Fake accounts? Sorry but I care more about the rocks and would obviously not do that.

Micah Klesick wrote: I'm with you on this. This whole conversation is simply some guy trying to get hits...

Micah ... I know this guy Pil quite well ... have climbed with him ...and his father ... be careful about showing yourself up
as a bit of what you chaps now call a gumbi... Cheers

Pil Jungli wrote: Losing the argument? Okay if you think it's right to start bolting in other countries in front of people who consider it wrong like geological survey of India and UNESCO then I've lost already. Not every body thinks it's a good thing. If you don't care about those rocks or climbing ethics then why bother to comment on it? Fake accounts? Sorry but I care more about the rocks and would obviously not do that.

I don't care about climbing ethics because I haven't been climbing long enough to develop them. Any opinion id have would simply be me mimicking someone else's opinion.

As far as bolting goes, no it's not my right to go and bolt anywhere, it's no one's inherent right. You want to protect this area? Cool, good. I was just calling out he obviously fake account in the topic.

Both India and the Americas have had enough of the ethical and moral British Imperialism, and we told you as much, by kicking your stank asses out of these continents. When will you learn that no one outside of your little brain washed tribe likes your British Imperial Burden, so keep it to yourself. Lest I come over the pond and force my burden on your shite little pile of rocks.

Something a little funny and ironic about globe trotting trustfunders bitching about the environment. I dunno, maybe it's just that the unburnt fuel in the stratosphere is getting to my brain.

In my limited experience climbing in "poorer" countries the primary barrier to traditional climbing being popular is cost (as mentioned above). This is a huge barrier too, very few have the means to pursue it. Sharing a aport rack is a fairly common occurrence.

A trad rack in the US is 2000 dollars. Gear is far more expensive in almost every country, often 2x or more as expensive, even in Europe. Factor in maybe a wage of 500$ a month or less for the middle class in many countries and you can start to see why purely traditional areas may never become popular. Traditional climbing is really only reasonable for the upper upper class in most third world areas(the 1%). Sport climbing is attainable for a larger number of people and therefore more popular. Not really taking a side here, just food for thought.

J Q wrote: Both India and the Americas have had enough of the ethical and moral British Imperialism, and we told you as much, by kicking your stank asses out of these continents. When will you learn that no one outside of your little brain washed tribe likes your British Imperial Burden, so keep it to yourself. Lest I come over the pond and force my burden on your shite little pile of rocks. Something a little funny and ironic about globe trotting trustfunders bitching about the environment. I dunno, maybe it's just that the unburnt fuel in the stratosphere is getting to my brain.

What brain ? Bye the way I have been a yank longer than yourself ... May I point out that it was the British that threw out the British troops... who were mostly non British .. Americans at that time had not been invented. One thing for sure you would never repeat a trad route in the UK as I see your a bolt below your feet pretend "climber"