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Double Fisherman's Unsafe?

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Derek DeBruin wrote:I can't speak for the entirety of the AMGA, but as a general rule, the AMGA as a body does not take stances on specific technical systems and their uses. Rather, the AMGA encourages its guides to be knowledgeable about a wide number of technical solutions to various climbing problems and select the solution most appropriate for the application at hand. In the case of joining loops of cord, the principle concern for application is whether the loop will be untied. Often, prussik loops are tied in a loop and left that way for the life of the material. Consequently, in those situations a double fisherman's knot is a very appropriate bend to use--it is secure, strong, and the ease of untying is irrelevant as the cord will likely never be untied. For tech cords, a triple fisherman's is often preferable and recommended by the manufacturer. For a cordelette (assuming it's not tech cord), there are many options. Often, a cordelette is made more useful and versatile when it can be untied. As a double fisherman's is challenging to untie, this makes it less desirable in this application. However, both the flat overhand bend (aka the "EDK") and the inline overhand bend (aka the ring bend or water knot) are easier to untie. If electing the flat overhand, the user should be aware that the knot can roll under loading. This can be countered by simply ensuring adequately long tails or by tying a back-up knot behind the flat overhand (such as a second overhand). If electing the inline overhand, the user also needs to ensure sufficiently long tails to avoid creep of the tails which can occur under repeated loading. However, if the user doesn't want to have to make these considerations, the double fisherman's bend will work quite well, provided the ease and versatility of untying the cordelette is not needed. Personally, I use a double fisherman's bend for my prussiks. I tend to use a flat overhand bend for my cordelette, though lately I've been leaning toward the inline overhand bend instead.
Or just use a flemish bend. it's easier to untie than overhand, it won't slip, and it's stronger. If you know you'll never need to untie, a double fishermans uses less cord than a flemish bend but that's the only benefit.
Andy P. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 190

As the original question was Re: AMGA, I can only say that I have been one of the fake "clients" on SPI assessments several times and I have taken a number of single day and multi-day clinics. On the SPI's I saw the DFK being instructed like 4 years ago. In the more recent 2 assessments I have attended it looked like the flat overhand was being instructed (or considered acceptable) for cord. This is only based on what I saw in the anchors and off of a few questions I asked.*

The clinics or classes I have attended have always been taught by either AMGA rock guides, alpine guides (or both). In all of those clinics I have seen the DFK actively discouraged (except in special situations like tech cord) and the flat overhand encouraged.* I once asked about backing up the flat overhand with another and the guide asked me "do you put two brake pedals on your car?"

Anyway we could avoid the whole conversation if you just tie OH or Fig8's on a bight at each end of the cord and clip them into the same piece if you want a loop**

  • *This is all entirely anecdotal!
  • **This doesn't always work the same way a true loop will (i.e. slinging a tree) but most of the time it works OK.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Andy P. wrote:* I once asked about backing up the flat overhand with another and the guide asked me "do you put two brake pedals on your car?"
Yes, it's called the e-brake, and I've never driven a car without one.
Daniel Evans · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 80
Em Cos wrote: Yes, it's called the e-brake, and I've never driven a car without one.
Though by adding a second flat overhand as a backup, doesn't it defeat the purpose of using a flat overhand in the first place (i.e. low profile knot in order to reduce the likelihood of getting stuck during the pull)?
Daniel Evans · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 80
CornCob wrote:I recently heard something interesting from a climbing partner. He was told that the AMGA discourages using double fisherman's to tie runners/prusiks out of cord, and that two overhands (EDK with backup) are preferred. I find this hard to believe, so I tried to find some source material to confirm/deny this claim. I was unable to find anything stating that the double fisherman's is unsafe. Have any of you heard anything similar to this, or have any sources on this? I'm convinced it's false, but wanted to get some additional community input. Thanks.
I use a flemish bend for my coordalettes and they're easy to untie. Don't overthink it. Numerous tests have been performed on the knots in question (double fisherman, flemish bend, flat overhand) and all three proved to be more than adequate. Personally, I wouldn't use a flat overhand for a cordalette used for anchor applications just because it can be prone to slippage if you are constantly loading and unloading the knot. Plus this way you don't have to use up half of your cord tying extra long tails or backup knots. Keep it simple. My 2c.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Daniel Evans wrote: Though by adding a second flat overhand as a backup, doesn't it defeat the purpose of using a flat overhand in the first place (i.e. low profile knot in order to reduce the likelihood of getting stuck during the pull)?
It's certainly more likely to snag than a single flat overhand as there is more bulk, however it doesn't entirely defeat the purpose of using a flat knot as the side of the knot pulling along the rock is still equally flat.

To be clear though, I do not personally use, nor advocate the use of, a second flat overhand as a back-up when joining two ropes for a rap. For me, simply tying it correctly (tightened, dressed, long tails) is plenty. I was simply pointing out that claiming car brakes have no back-up is false, and therefore a silly analogy to use to justify not using a back-up in other situations.
will smith · · boulder · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 35

Knot

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385
Daniel Evans wrote: Though by adding a second flat overhand as a backup, doesn't it defeat the purpose of using a flat overhand in the first place (i.e. low profile knot in order to reduce the likelihood of getting stuck during the pull)?
Single overhand (EDK) on ropes you are pulling. Make sure there are tails and you tighten all strands

When joining the two ends of a cord the first overhand stops the second one from rolling over. That is all there is to the mystery.

It is just one option of many.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

BITD, we used to tie rappel ropes with a square knot backed up on either side with double overhands; in other words a double fisherman's with a square knot in between. This knot is bulky, snags relatively easily, and offers more pulling resistance than more compact knots, but it was always trivial to untie.

It would, consequently, be perfect for knotting cordelettes, where it's downsides for rappelling would be of no consequence.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
George W wrote:Please everyone, stop referring to the flat overhand knot as a EDK (euro-death-knot), as that name implies an unsafe connotation and leads new climbers to tie their ropes together with a flat figure-eight knot, which rolls apart more easily and has led to 2 deaths in the US this year alone. There are many knots, some are more right than others, and some will kill you. The OP was asking about joining cord/webbing for a loop.
You do you realize that the flat eight is now called the Flat Eight will kill you mate.

And the Euro Death Knot is called the Euro Death Knot Don't Make Shit Up Knot or you will die.
Sean Brady · · Boulder, Colorado · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 125
knudeNoggin wrote:Often, a cordelette is made more useful and versatile when it can be untied. Rather, a cordelette should NOT BE tied --just bring the tails out through the powerpoint knot ("big honking" overhand), and clip the two (rather than three) eyes as usual.
Can you expand on this? Sounds interesting and I'd like to try it out, however I'm having trouble visualizing how this would work.
Max Koenig · · New Haven, CT · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 10
Sean Brady wrote: Can you expand on this? Sounds interesting and I'd like to try it out, however I'm having trouble visualizing how this would work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF4A85CPr8c
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

I don't see the point in tying a cordelette with an EDK knot that can't handel a hard leader fall. what if you sling a chockstone or ice pillar with your cord. If it's tied with the EDK you have to re tie the knott mid lead or use a knot that is not strong enough to trust in a hard leader fall. stupid INMOP. annoying when folks use EDKs on fixed threads. they leave the junk behind but because they used a weak knot you can't trust it as fixed gear to clip on the way up. EDK is great for rapping but it pulls apart pretty easy. the Flat overhand /edk is the only knott I have tested that pulls apart. the fig 8, doubble fishermans and bowline all break the rope when they fail. EDK pulls through so easy you don't even feel any resistance. not what you want in a situation where the system could recieve the load of a leader fall.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Nick Goldsmith wrote:I don't see the point in tying a cordelette with an EDK knot that can't handel a hard leader fall. what if you sling a chockstone or ice pillar with your cord. If it's tied with the EDK you have to re tie the knott mid lead or use a knot that is not strong enough to trust in a hard leader fall. stupid INMOP. annoying when folks use EDKs on fixed threads. they leave the junk behind but because they used a weak knot you can't trust it as fixed gear to clip on the way up. EDK is great for rapping but it pulls apart pretty easy. the Flat overhand /edk is the only knott I have tested that pulls apart. the fig 8, doubble fishermans and bowline all break the rope when they fail. EDK pulls through so easy you don't even feel any resistance. not what you want in a situation where the system could recieve the load of a leader fall.
Of just use a sling for that and save your cord for the anchor like most people who use a cordalette
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

I like that method of not haveing the thing tied at all IF you use the cordelette method for building anchors. I do not. Almost never carry that much cord. I carry several 4ft lengths in the winter for building V threads. no extra cord at all in summer.

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Eli. what if you sling a fat tree with your cordelette and its not doubbled or trippled it is just wrapped arround the tree once. now everything is dependant on one weak knott. If you are going to carry a pre tied cordelette to be used in multiple situations use a knot that can handel anything you throw at it. Not a knot that you can use one way but not annother way....

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Nick Goldsmith wrote:Eli. what if you sling a fat tree with your cordelette and its not doubbled or trippled it is just wrapped arround the tree once. now everything is dependant on one weak knott. If you are going to carry a pre tied cordelette to be used in multiple situations use a knot that can handel anything you throw at it. Not a knot that you can use one way but not annother way....
If you sling a fat tree like that, you're going to have to untie it and retie it around the tree no matter what. Which means you're at the anchor or on a ledge, in which case tie it together using whatever knot you damn well please. My suggestion would be a flemish bend. The only time I would use an edk for my cordelette is if i'm using it knotless style but want to carry it around the shoulder. That being said, last time I checked the AMGA recommended using an edk for the cordalette if you didn't want it to be atomically welded by a double fishermans.

Then again, in a situations where you are using your cordalette in this style, you might as well just use the rope. This is why I keep my cordalette tied in a quad.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Max Koenig wrote: youtube.com/watch?v=qF4A85C…
Any idea why he recommends extending the ends beyond the masterpoint as opposed to just tying the ends into the masterpoint knot? Tying them into the masterpoint would allow the anchor to be slightly longer and/ or allow for the use of less cord.
George W · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 6
Max Koenig wrote: youtube.com/watch?v=qF4A85C…
The only time I think an open ended wad of cord is preferable is when you're building ice anchors with V-threads for the obvious need to thread and/or occasional have cord to quickly cut and bail from. Nothing about this strategy is better because it's not any faster and it requires more cord.
Sean Brady · · Boulder, Colorado · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 125
George W wrote: Nothing about this strategy is better because it's not any faster and it requires more cord.
Except that it's stronger as there is no knot in one of the legs, more versatile since you can re-configure it for a variety of anchors, easier to set up a 3-legged anchor with, and easier to rack, and just as fast to create anchors with.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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