The Devils Lake top rope cluster Fu&k thread...

Boots Ylectric wrote:So with all this back and forth over the semantics of James' cam I have to break the rules of the thread to ask the obvious question no one is asking here. Why not just try a different placement so that you're not weakening the placement at all, and wasting time sitting there doing math to figure out how much one way or the other might be weakening the placement? I mean this in the friendliest way possible, because I'm a nice guy too, but all the mental gymnastics on this one seems a bit ridiculous when you're making a gear anchor which means you probably have plenty of other options.

We actually had relatively little extra gear on hand, because we were quickly moving setups. I did try a couple other pieces in the area, but couldn't find what I considered satisfactory placements. If you ever get to the top of D'Arcy's, and really check it out, you'll find a considerable amount of loose-ish rock in the cracks. This was the best placement I could find in the best rock I could find, and to me, those two considerations far outweigh any loss in time to rig the Strop Hitch (Edit to add - which as Doug mentioned is pretty-much hardwired into my operational process for the given situation and doesn't cost me nearly the time that hunting for other, less-satisfactory gear would).

Well I can't argue with that answer. I missed the location in the discussion I know you weren't literally doing the math up there, I was being figurative. I'm shutting up until I dig through my pics and find a good jive ass anchor to post up. I think we can stop picking on James' one cam now lol.

Boots Ylectric wrote:I think we can stop picking on James' one cam now lol.

Fresh

Andy: Love the ONE bigASS single point anchor. I've had people crap on me for using similar in size, and not backing it up with a #2 anchor point. Some people just have their head stuck too far up their rules list from their anchors class to see logic, and they won't ever accept the TOTAL UNMOVABLE OBJECT as a good anchor. Hey, if the World Trade Center can fall down,,,why not our monster rocks or 3 ft diameter trees too,,,,seems to be their thinking. It always pays to have a couple 30 ft. loops of sling around for such needs.

Aaaand MP has notified me I have exceeded my allowed input- content for 24 hours,,so will see what is posted up by Friday next. Never knew they had that limitation.

James M Schroeder wrote: "Strop Bend" not "Stop Bend". Your description here is inaccurate. It is not a "twist" but an orienting of the slings such that the bend is uniform and symmetrical. Strop Bends are no more time consuming to tie than girth hitches.

Whoops, that was a poor description on my part. What I meant to say was you can form a strop by making a normal girth hitch and then "flipping" one of the slings over to create that clean symmetrical bend you speak of. It's the same reason that sometimes girth will turn themselves into strops with no human intervention after being loaded (I've never actually seen this but I read it somewhere). I always consider it longer to tie simply because I always imagine the gear as being already placed - so you have to put it on as a girth and then fiddle with the slings to flip it into a strop. I suppose if you start with the gear out of the crack you can tie it super quick via the normal method by threading the sling around the gear (the method shown in almost every google link). But anyway this is pretty meaningless, just in the name of education...

I think it would help if you understood my background. I learned to climb exclusively in a mountaineering and multi-pitch environment. I almost never TRed until I came to DL despite hundreds of pitches of alpine, rock, ice, etc. Heck, I even climbed up to 6000m before TRing at the lake! As a result there is just something about a unused piece of gear (the biner) that just irks me, I just never leave gear behind. If anything I'd use it to opposite and oppose another non-locker (perhaps the .75 next to it)? When working just my first day ever at DL guiding I found myself desperately short of gear (I even used the racking biner for my nut tool in an anchor (one of those horrible and infamous-for-bolt-snagging mammut moses) and carried my nut tool in my pocket) and so I think that my "leave nothing behind" mentality hasn't really died. Plus, as I already admitted, I was hoping it was your handiwork and we could give you some representation in the cluster thread - I am SURE that I myself will end up in here someday once someone stumbles upon one of my 6mm cord quadralette-ish setups, cheers!

The only thing I will bring up is the fact that a top rope anchor is not being attended to, and can be left unchecked all day by some groups.

This would be my reasoning for redundancy. The possibilities, even being remote, could lead to catastrophe.

Andy P. wrote:there is just something about a unused piece of gear (the biner) that just irks me

Still talking about that unused biner??? I leave my racking biner on the cam sling I use for anchor all the time, unused. That way I can just clip it back onto my sling when I'm done, so in the end it's easier for me to just leave it on there. Not a safety issue = who cares. Sheesh.

Less talk more pics.

J Marsella wrote:This thread has gone way downhill. Can we cull all the non-photo posts PLEASE and return this corner of MP to the pristine condition of natural beauty and noobacy of yore???

tr anchor

Here you are, eat it up! It's a toprope I made for a small 35' climb that I didn't extend the masterpoint over the edge(s).The edge was pretty smooth IMO and the rope ran fine. Only three climbs on the route (great crack / slab route).
Not pictured, the pro - a medium sized nut, a .4 X4 cam and a yellow #2 in seperate cracks as pro, equalized with the cordellette and locked off with overhand at MP

Brings me to a point of frustration:
When tying something like this, what would be the most efficient way to extend and equalize the MP when you cant / worry about being close to the edge? I have done a variety of the following in the past:

- Equalize by hand and then lock off the masterpoint. This always felt like a challenge getting equal weight on each point
- Equalize by: running rope through MP biners, have someone below pull on rope. Unclip rope and hang it on something, tie the MP knot clip the rope back in
- Had my climbing shoes on a biner and threw them over the edge to equalize
- Want to, but haven't: Tie climbing rope and rap over edge a little bit. Have a few ascender / progress capture pieces to get back up or hang there and work on the knot.

J Marsella wrote:This thread has gone way downhill. Can we cull all the non-photo posts PLEASE

I am guilty as charged! OK so here is one from years ago, not especially remarkable but relevant now. James a few posts back mentioned that the DLCG standard is 40kn for a TR anchor. So I built this anchor over 4 years ago, this was back in the day that our club required a guide to be with us on all outings, so we had 'da man Nick himself from DLCG with us. He was next door teaching someone how to build anchors for a lot of time, I had so much extra time that I just kept playing around and resetting this thing over and over, eventually placing 5 pieces and setting two master independent master points at just the right length (clusterf**k anyone???). Anyway, eventually we get another anchor set up and Nick comes over to see what I have been up to for the past half hour... and he actually gave me a hard time for it being too much. I remember him saying like a 20-something kn standard, not 40kn, but whatever. The best part about this is that after all that time, I come up to the top later when someone is being lowered and I see that the locking biner on the cordalette has been pulled (albeit barely) onto the ledge. Dammit, that thing was well suspended in air before the anchor was weighted. Just one of my many "facepalm" moments.

Not enough cluster, more pieces and non redundant connection points needed...

Andy gets completely PWNT by physics and dynamic cordage stretch; even with forever to fiddle with this I still f*** it up, fail!

An equalette shows up as a TR anchor.

Andy, "Moderation/Schizophrenia"? We've talked about that EDK, right? Using dynamic cord as anchor material is asking for your (anchor) rope to be cut on an edge - I've seen several ropes core shot in this application at the Lake.

Mike, High Cliff? Mississippi Palisades? You are right, getting a neat and tidy masterpoint below the lip is tricky, and different people use each of the strategies you mention. One thing I will suggest is that if you hang the rope to provide a test weight for your anchor alignment, fix it (put a knot in it). Otherwise, you will eventually have someone below start up the rope before it is actually safe - I see this fairly regularly at the Lake.

There are a number of things that make it tricky to judge an anchor from a photo. One is that we get to see the material used, but have little idea what other material was/was not at hand. Another is that we assume all these are for TRs - yet a number of anchors that have shown up here were not built for that purpose. Yet another is that we are not all trying to establish the same hardwiring/habits. I prefer anchoring principals that I can use on big rock routes. Others here are aiming for liability-proof anchors.

To me the common denominators are: what is safe enough that there is a vanishingly small probability that someone will be hurt due to anchor failure/partial failure? and what will keep the gear itself from being hurt?

I've also been around long enough and am enough of an empiricist that I like to refer to the accidents that actually happen at DL, and give them much more weight than purely hypothetical concerns. Despite all our hand-wringing, there are surprisingly few accidents due to bad anchors - there are some, but not a huge number. This should give us pause to reconsider where the line is between poor anchoring practice and demonstrably bad anchors.

Andy P. wrote: I am guilty as charged! OK so here is one from years ago, not especially remarkable but relevant now. James a few posts back mentioned that the DLCG standard is 40kn for a TR anchor. So I built this anchor over 4 years ago, this was back in the day that our club required a guide to be with us on all outings, so we had 'da man Nick himself from DLCG with us. He was next door teaching someone how to build anchors for a lot of time, I had so much extra time that I just kept playing around and resetting this thing over and over, eventually placing 5 pieces and setting two master independent master points at just the right length (clusterf**k anyone???). Anyway, eventually we get another anchor set up and Nick comes over to see what I have been up to for the past half hour... and he actually gave me a hard time for it being too much. I remember him saying like a 20-something kn standard, not 40kn, but whatever. The best part about this is that after all that time, I come up to the top later when someone is being lowered and I see that the locking biner on the cordalette has been pulled (albeit barely) onto the ledge. Dammit, that thing was well suspended in air before the anchor was weighted. Just one of my many "facepalm" moments.

From pics shown: Question. Don't you worry about those anchors pulling 'out' much more than 'down' towards the climber TR'd below? I get scared seeing sideways or outward pull on my lead placements even, until I can get in a well placed downward piece in. Exception would be sport climbing placed permanent bolts that are meant from chosen rock quality and location to hold even upward into a roof, and from side, besides downward. Scary to me for a toprope use anchor, IF for multiple use during the day. OK if it is your body anchor, as you stay atop the climb and haul the second up with belay weight /direction transferred downward to your body and belay loop. Just asking.

Woodchuck ATC wrote: From pics shown: Question. Don't you worry about those anchors pulling 'out' much more than 'down' towards the climber TR'd below? ... Scary to me for a toprope use anchor, IF for multiple use during the day ... Just asking.

Hi Woodchuck, I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. In a horizontal crack it seems rare that a piece can be oriented for true downward pull. The flexible stems/wires/slings bend over the horizontal and translate the downward force in to that outward force you discuss, and it is that outward pull that is the anticipated direction of pull when placing them... or since I am not a physicist I don't know wtf I am talking about... but I think you get what I am saying?

Yeah, that doesn't concern me. The angle's a little weird since that's such a huge ledge so you might get a little bit of force multiplication, but the eventual direction of pull is always the same for TR: down.

Ted Pinson wrote:Yeah, that doesn't concern me. The angle's a little weird since that's such a huge ledge so you might get a little bit of force multiplication, but the eventual direction of pull is always the same for TR: down.

What I remeber from the BD cam manual, the flexible stemmed cams can be placed sideways (with the pull perpendicular to the crack) but should be avoided as it might kink the stem. Same thing with the x4's apparently which I thought was fine because of the aluminum rings shielding the stem. I think if you find a downward facing constriction facing the eventual angle of pull that is optimum as the cam would seat itself like a piece of passive pro

Not sure if this applies more, or less to other cam brands

cam instructions

Camalot manual:
demandware.edgesuite.net/aa…

X4 manual:
blackdiamondequipment.com/o…

Mikeyy - Difficult Crack at Mississippi Palisades? It is a great lead! I have always wondered why the bolts were removed? I would have no problem climbing on that setup...the way the top 10 feet staircase make it pretty hard to not have any rope drag

bchristie wrote:Mikeyy - Difficult Crack at Mississippi Palisades? It is a great lead! I have always wondered why the bolts were removed? I would have no problem climbing on that setup...the way the top 10 feet staircase make it pretty hard to not have any rope drag

There were two bolt threads sticking out which I assume you would bring your own fixed anchor bits to screw on? I noticed them about halfway setting up the anchor - and just pretended I didn't see those shiny things drilled into the rock. I still prefer to be a gear snob and just do it trad style with my cool widgets! haha. There's not supposed to be bolts there. Also, how would you know if you have the right thread on your fixed anchors if you were to find, buy, and bring some hangers to match??

And to return to the clusterf**k... gear markings have been censored to avoid insulting anyone.

Ummmmm...

That is quite the TR rig? Or.... was it meant for something else?????
The girth hitch of the perlon on the webbing? I think this rig takes the cake!
An obvious example of someone having very litle knowledge of proper knot tying for rock climbing purposes. It does look like they executed tying a somewhat okay double overhand on the tan sling. I vote this rig for first place of the TDLTRCFT..

This anchor was at the top of Cul-de-Sac.

First, I ran two laps on this latest anchor ... so glad I was told how awful it was before I got to the top! So I've already told you what I would do differently.

WRT anchor points, it's fine. (The third anchor was a tree.) WRT connecting the anchor points, it is essentially a one-point anchor. Although it looks like the webbing on the right leg is tied to the perlon, that was just to keep the end from flapping in the wind, I'm told. The perlon is pretty much functionless. A single leg of doubled webbing is not great where you are swinging the rope between Cul-de-Sac, Nine-minus, and Ten-minus. While you are not very likely to cut the webbing through, you could easily ruin the webbing.

As long as it's not my gear, I'm okay with it.