The Devils Lake top rope cluster Fu&k thread...

I'm of the mindset that one should either solo or build bomber anchors. A system that will fail if actually loaded is a waste of time. Something isn't always better than nothing, especially when it provides a false sense of security.

Anchors don't need to be three-point, SERENE setups, to be good. Just yesterday, I used a hip belay, with some terrain and a "really good stance" to belay a partner up a quick approach pitch of 5-easy that I had soloed in front. Anchors need to be unquestionably suitable for the load they are intended to absorb for the duration of the time they are expected to be in use. Stances, terrain, and individual pieces, can (usually in combination) qualify for this, but this is expert-level anchoring and total thread-drift.

The thread title is "The Devils Lake top rope cluster Fu&k thread..." And, as such I think we should keep the discussion limited to jacked TR anchors, not alpine, and/or speed-climbing (BTW nice work Doug and Gokul), anchors.

Doug Hemken wrote:We all make mistakes eventually, and our routine systems should take that into account.

Indeed.

OK Jon and all DL fans, time to keep this thread alive in style. My group was set up Saturday on Two Pines, I made one pass to the CCC and back so all of these photos were taken in just the space between two pines and east to the CCC, all at the same time of the day.

Our first one was set up right next to us. I have no idea if this technically qualifies as an ADT but nevertheless it is some weird variation of one. Easily had enough webbing to do it right, wtf!

This next one isn’t wrong, just kind of funny. I gotta back up my double fisherman's with… another double fisherman's! I guess “double doubles” aren’t just for basketball players anymore.



The next one is perplexing, why use a carabiner when you can just girth hitch and beat the crap out of your (expensive to replace) cam sling. OK, I will bet the owner will justify this by saying there was concern about the biner on the rock face… but you could have clipped to the thumb loop, or… at least clip it loosely from sling to sing if you insist on the girth hitch… why leave it dangling there doing nothing is a bit odd to me.* Heck, at least carry it to the base of the climb so that passing idiots don’t steal your biner. *(I admit I am overreacting to this one, but I am just confused).



This last one is to show how even the good anchor builders get unlucky sometimes. This person had great placements and even protects the cordage with old webbing. But, their directional had inadvertently been pulled and twisted into just about the worst possible position for that carabiner, which is likely experiencing an open gate when loaded now across the rock face. Proof that even the best anchor builders can’t always predict where their anchor elements will end up after a few loading cycles, unlucky!




And to conclude, in the theme of “cluster f**k,” here’s a pic of the average top-of-the-east-bluff Saturday, climbers as far as the eye can see. Also, count how many crisscrossing blue and yellow lines we can tie on top of Pedestal along with a totally unattended trashy Ikea bag with random gear splayed about? Cluster for sure.

Ew. Definitely an ADT. So much webbing...why...?

Also love that they girth hitched that cam sling when they could have just girth-hitched the bomber looking chockstone and ditched the cam altogether...

holy shit! my favorite is the last pic with all those cris crossed loops of web. When does a climber decide, 'WTF, this area is too crowded' and move along instead of adding to the cluster?

Well here's my effort to add something useful to the mess. My pet peeve is misuse of carabiners at the point where your rope goes through. In the 'old days', you used a couple ovals, flipped one around because you were taught that cuz you didn't own any locking biners to spare. Now days with so many strange off shaped 'D' style biners, it's tough to get a nice match for your set up IF you have not purchased an identical pair, same shape at least, same size so rope will run over both with same force, not one taking the force and the other one just hanging around. Nothing runs smoother than a pair of ovals; one locking biner takes the place of that old need to flip the gates around.

But do NOT set up as shown in pic 2!! You now have set up a 'scissoring' affect from the switched direction carabiners. The force of your weight now pinches them both against the rope, and 'scissors' it as they close up tighter as your full weight is on the rope from fall, or when lowered. Not good for your rope life, that's for sure. Best bet: Get some ovals for your last carabiners to go over the edge for ease of rope movement.

how about this set up? 2 slings, 2 anchor points, and one HIDEOUS angle that is waaay too wide ! Know your physics please !
You try to keep the anchor points either separately equalized to a master point. If using double slings as shown, you must try to keep the angle < or = to 30 degrees to avoid too much force on your separate anchor points. Slings are far too short for this set up. There should be 2 separate, longer slings going over the edge here, to reach a master point to lessen the forces on anchors.

cyclestupor wrote: Because they didn't clip the biner through the loop of the sling. Instead they clipped the biners around both sides of the sling. Like a sliding x without the x. Also known as clipping the basket. When the nut popped, it was pulled right through the biner, unthreading the sling.

I set up this pic to give a visual for the above statement. Pretty sure this is what they were describing. Either anchor fails, and the rest slides right through the carabiners as they are not inside of the sling loop, but over it.

Pic one is leading to the two static lines seen in pic 2. Plus a third line off to the right is part of this anchor set up seen last weekend. I'm not sure about all that knotage' going on there....anybody use this regularly as their set up?

That scissor issue thing is not real, both carabiniers are allowed to align the stem with the forces. To get a scissor action they would have to be pinned together Two opposing D's are fine. But yeah make them match in size.

Last for tonight's posts: My usual set up for a toprope. Two identical length sling sets always used in same pair, and I'm talking to the millimeter, so they both share equally on load. Two carabiners at all connections; one locking, and again, both biners are checked for inner gap to be identical so both are again equally holding the sling forces. Kept together as that matching pair. I am satisfied with Italic Textthe totally immovable object', Italic Text, in this case the large tree. If the tree falls over, its mass alone would do fine as my anchor. But to keep people happy, I back it up with another tree, set of slings and set of carabiners, connected to the original loop of slings that go over the edge to master point and rope.
I usually wrap huge boulders or massive trees with these pre-measured and tied pairs of slings. They have a piece of tape on the end with length of the loop shown so I can pic and choose from my supply quickly. This tree is a bit smaller than I prefer, thus the additional anchor tree in use. I have never had anchor failure or slippage in over 40 years of instruction and top rope use at DL or any other location with this method taught in my toperope anchor and guide course long ago,,,,maybe 15+ years before there was an AMGA certification in the US.

Mike13 wrote:That scissor issue thing is not real, both carabiniers are allowed to align the stem with the forces. To get a scissor action they would have to be pinned together Two opposing D's are fine. But yeah make them match in size.

I would hope so, but so often find them bound up, rope flattened and tight to pull through just as you belay. Yes, size does affect it too. Sometimes one carabiner slides inside of the other one and ends up binding it even worse than usual misfit set ups. I think the smaller diameter ropes have a tougher time than a thicker rope....and by thicker' these days, I guess that means for those of us who still use 10.5 to 11mm ropes yet for toprope routes and heavy use.

Woodchuck ATC wrote:how about this set up? 2 slings, 2 anchor points, and one HIDEOUS angle that is waaay too wide ! Know your physics please ! You try to keep the anchor points either separately equalized to a master point. If using double slings as shown, you must try to keep the angle < or = to 30 degrees to avoid too much force on your separate anchor points. Slings are far too short for this set up. There should be 2 separate, longer slings going over the edge here, to reach a master point to lessen the forces on anchors.

Yet another ADK. Seriously, what is wrong with people?

Woodchuck ATC wrote:This tree is a bit smaller than I prefer, thus the additional anchor tree in use.

I'd trust a full, healthy tree with this size trunk all day long... The weight of the tree itself far exceeds the force that an anchor like that would put on it. If it's been able to hold itself up all these years in the wind, I don't think hanging from the base of its trunk is going to topple it over.

Kent Richards wrote: I'd trust a full, healthy tree with this size trunk all day long... The weight of the tree itself far exceeds the force that an anchor like that would put on it. If it's been able to hold itself up all these years in the wind, I don't think hanging from the base of its trunk is going to topple it over.

Agree. Bu that tree is like so many at DL, half dead, hollowed out in back, but still alive, green and sturdy. If someone saw that hollow tree as their anchor, they might worry thus want the backup. I just picture in my mind, the big-ass tree going down, dragging toward the edge of the cliff. How asleep would your belayer have to be to NOT notice something moving and wrong and lower your ass down faster than Dave Slinger could put you on the ground? ( I include the historic DL hardman because Dave could lover you to a soft toe touch from any height in about 3.2 seconds, and that was with a stretch goldline on a hip belay. )

Ted Pinson wrote: Yet another ADK. Seriously, what is wrong with people?

And to clarify to al again to put your mind at ease: I had no time to go search for hours to find screw up belays, etc. I set most of these belays up for purpose of example to photograph and discuss here..No climber was ever anchored to the bad bad set ups shown. If I found a belay to show,,,I think I mentioned that I found it and took pic, but did not see or chat with the climbers that day.

Look back at least at history of climbing out east and here in Midwest from the 40's era. There were a lot of stress filled scientists, physicists who made their way to the cliffs. I think a scientific brain sort of helps with knowing the physics of their climbing protection set ups. Several unnamed nuclear physicists working at U of Chicago or the early Argonne labs on Manhattan Project spent time climbing at DL......and they had the gas ration tickets and money to drive the distance as an added privilege back then when there was gas rationing.

Andy P. wrote:Also, count how many crisscrossing blue and yellow lines we can tie on top of Pedestal along with a totally unattended trashy Ikea bag with random gear splayed about? Cluster for sure.

As one of the people who set up the two bright green setups, and the blue setup (but didn't have anything to do with the "trashy Ikea bag" - that was someone else's) I can tell you that these were set up for two groups of clients, were totally bomber and were only up for an hour or two as we worked our half-dozen clients through these, and another six setups as the day passed. These were quick, efficient and bomber. I think it would be hard to find a quicker (Sub 10 minutes each), more efficient (hardly any extraneous gear), and/or more bomber (all three of them were well over a 40kn commercial standard) way to setup everything from Zig-Zag to Darcy's Wall. Also, I'd like to point out that none of these setups were on, or over, the trail; nor were any of them in an area where I, in my 20 seasons of climbing at the Lake, have ever seen a congregation of non-climbing users. Had we been in an area with a lot of non-climber foot traffic, we would have chosen a less impactful, but more time consuming, way of setting the routes we were on. One other minor point, these setups were on 04: D'Arcy's Buttress and not 05: Pedestal Buttress.

Further, there is only one leg, of one system crossing the others.

Andy P. wrote:The next one is perplexing, why use a carabiner when you can just girth hitch and beat the crap out of your (expensive to replace) cam sling. OK, I will bet the owner will justify this by saying there was concern about the biner on the rock face… but you could have clipped to the thumb loop, or… at least clip it loosely from sling to sing if you insist on the girth hitch… why leave it dangling there doing nothing is a bit odd to me.* Heck, at least carry it to the base of the climb so that passing idiots don’t steal your biner. *(I admit I am overreacting to this one, but I am just confused).

It's not really perplexing at all, so let's take your points one at time:

Andy P. wrote:The next one is perplexing, why use a carabiner when you can just girth hitch and beat the crap out of your (expensive to replace) cam sling.

Actually, it's only $8 to have slings replaced - form HERE. And, this is a "Strop Bend" which is similar to, but different from a "Girth Hitch".

Andy P. wrote:I will bet the owner will justify this by saying there was concern about the biner on the rock face…

Exactly, yes. It's considerably better to have webbing, rather than carabiners, over edges.

Andy P. wrote:...but you could have clipped to the thumb loop...

Actually no, that is inferior as shown HERE, and to be generally avoided - that is if Black Diamond and the AMGA are to be trusted concerning the placement of Camalots.

Andy P. wrote:why leave it dangling there doing nothing is a bit odd to me.* Heck, at least carry it to the base of the climb so that passing idiots don’t steal your biner. *(I admit I am overreacting to this one, but I am just confused).

Yes, you are overreacting. That said, it was done because I was using gear owned by the other guide on the trip, and I wanted to keep her gear separate from mine. I also didn't expect tourists to be digging 2 feet down into a crack to pull out a carabiner from a system - at least no more than I would expect someone to steal the cam from the system. Thanks for not stealing it.

In the end, I had a great day guiding on Saturday with these (and a few more) setups. I safely moved four beginner climbers up an average of five routes (ranging from 5.4 to 5.9) each in about 5.5 hours car-to-car. The other guide I was working with that day had a pair of climbers and I would assume got about as much mileage for her clients as well - although I didn't ask her. I think this reflects a fair amount of competency and efficiency - thanks for your feedback though Andy.

LOL

I learned something from this thread! Thanks James! Did not know the bit about not tying right to the thump loop. Nice!

In response to that wonderful tangle of setups in above pic shown my James:
As much as I try, I admit there are times I have also had to dodge and duck around other belays to get my rope set up. I try to avoid such a tangle but sometimes you just have to patiently wander through and get yours in place. If a tree is shared, I don't want to be the belay that has to interfere with the previous one. Hoping they will leave the area before I do, I try to set up under, lower than the others in place, so they will have easy access to getting their gear off and out. I'd hate for my anchor to slide down a few inches and then be bound up against theirs; thus why I attempt to place it underneath their lowest point to avoid being the 'offender' if stuff gets tight and tangled.
I think the guide services all working at DL do a pretty good job in sharing space and climbs. Some will willingly allow your use of their ropes if asked. Others have been directed by their employer not to do so, due to safety concern and legal jumbo about who now is liable for any accident. It may look messy, but think we all share pretty good and are open to suggestions if there appears to be a belay set up error.

Woodchuck ATC wrote:... lower your ass down faster than Dave Slinger could put you on the ground? ( I include the historic DL hardman because Dave could lover you to a soft toe touch from any height in about 3.2 seconds, and that was with a stretch goldline on a hip belay. )

I did not realize that Slinger ever used a rope! Learn something new every day!