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Confessions of a zinc-plated bolter

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

My point is more along the lines of planned obsolescence, much shorter replacement intervals with plated. Bad plated shows up much quicker. The effort required to replace an entire crag actually helps the local community develop cohesion and camaraderie. It helps later generations take ownership and have skin in the game.
I am not particularly advocating one over the other, but to be more thorough in the problem solving process.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Mike Lane wrote:My point is more along the lines of planned obsolescence, much shorter replacement intervals with plated. Bad plated shows up much quicker. The effort required to replace an entire crag actually helps the local community develop cohesion and camaraderie. It helps later generations take ownership and have skin in the game. I am not particularly advocating one over the other, but to be more thorough in the problem solving process.
Factor in that we know of 100's of bad bolts and despite concerted efforts, are behind in replacing them.
Gregger Man · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 1,759
cyclestupor wrote: ...I thought part of the reason for the push for SS is that plated can't be reliably inspected from the outside.
There can definitely be hidden corrosion at the back of the hole. With 3/8" Rawls it often means that you will break off the bolt when trying to inspect it (see Hildenbrand's earlier post), and with studs it means that a purely axial force will make it slide out of the hole since the collar can no longer move down the wedge.
Luckily climbing falls result in mostly shearing force. I still put a lot more faith in an old plated Rawl than an old plated stud.
If the stud is going to fail, it can fail suddenly/completely (especially if the collar pops over the wedge entirely). The Rawl is more likely to slowly move out of the hole over many load cycles since there is so much more surface area along that sleeve.
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

Very nice post, Mike.

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
Tony B wrote: Factor in that we know of 100's of bad bolts and despite concerted efforts, are behind in replacing them.
I would respond with the idea that personal responsibility is the number one attribute our community should foster. If a plated route has value, it will be maintained as ling as we don't outsource responsibility. If it does not, then the individual decides whether to ascend it or not, maybe perhaps do everyone a favor and at least decommission a rotten gear route.
I still stand by my assertion that the affordability of plated opined up vast more terrain than if we were compelled to stainless only. Much more value was created for the community. And this can be applied to wealth generation in the real world as well. The more minimized forced compliance is, the greater the benefits.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Mike Lane wrote: I still stand by my assertion that the affordability of plated opined up vast more terrain than if we were compelled to stainless only. Much more value was created for the community.
There's been no argument about that. But I think that failing to integrate lessons learned would be fool hardy. And so, the push for better equipment.
Shoot, gold line (rope) did wonders for the accessibility of climbing, but we've moved on because there are better options. Same for Boreal Fires and Pitons for free climbing.
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

But you don't have FHRC's dictating dynamic ropes and turn down shoes.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Mike Lane wrote: Much more value was created for the community.
Value is an individual judgement. What I value might be the opposite of what you value. I think you mean more routes were created for the community in your statement above. Well I find more routes with cheap PS to be off less value than fewer routes with high quality SS equipment which is safer in the long run and will have less of an impact on the resource trying to maintain them.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Mike Lane wrote:But you don't have FHRC's dictating dynamic ropes and turn down shoes.
No, because that does not effect land managers and you suffer the consequences of foolishness yourself. Regardless, While I implore people to use good hardware, I never said anything about land managers regulating other than that if you want to avoid it, do the best you can to prevent it.

But, it's an election year, so people believe what they want and rationalize it, no matter the facts.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Mike Lane wrote:But you don't have FHRC's dictating dynamic ropes and turn down shoes.
Dynamic ropes are just basic knowledge at this point... You don't climb on a static rope or hemp because you realize their limitations/weaknesses should be the same for PS bolts. We realize they work but they have their limitations and weaknesses and hopefully sooner than later we wont see people placing them. Same goes for dynamic ropes...
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
Morgan Patterson wrote: Value is an individual judgement. What I value might be the opposite of what you value. I think you mean more routes were created for the community in your statement above. Well I find more routes with cheap PS to be off less value than fewer routes with high quality SS equipment which is safer in the long run and will have less of an impact on the resource trying to maintain them.
So how is having fewer routes available a greater value? I don't know anyone who thinks Shelf would be better if it only had half the routes.
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

And again, let me re-state that I am all for Voluntary persuasion. Just keep those dictates out the compulsory arena.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Mike Lane wrote: So how is having fewer routes available a greater value?
It isn't unless it came with fewer people.
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
Healyje wrote: It isn't unless it came with fewer people.
And that is elitist.
Sam Feuerborn · · Carbondale · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 810
Tony B wrote: Factor in that we know of 100's of bad bolts and despite concerted efforts, are behind in replacing them.
This is the greater issue here I think. Not necessarily the hardware itself but the engagement of the community and a propensity to talk big game without any follow through.

I get that making this statement amongst the folks on this thread is fairly irrelevant as you all are already placing and replacing those nails and screws in the walls.
Bruce Hildenbrand · · Silicon Valley/Boulder · Joined Apr 2003 · Points: 3,615
Mike Lane wrote:My point is more along the lines of planned obsolescence, much shorter replacement intervals with plated. Bad plated shows up much quicker.
Look at my photo on the first page of this thread. Because the plated 5-piece bolt snapped off in the hole I could not re-use the hole. In your scenario, if we are replacing plated bolts more frequently, there is a possibility that the rock could become Swiss Cheese with all the snapped off bolts.
derek peavey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 70

If plated steel is the devils metal than why does Fixe and Climbtech still carry them. Shouldn't they be the first ones to stop if plated is so bad. Giving climbers limited access to them.
We also need to contact the headquarters of Hilti and Powers. Tell them they need to stop making plated steel bolts because all of those bridges and buildings being build that have plated steel are all ticking time bombs and we are all going to die. Just think, the building you are in right now at this moment has a plated steel bolt and its starting to break. Watch out!

Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: Look at my photo on the first page of this thread. Because the plated 5-piece bolt snapped off in the hole I could not re-use the hole. In your scenario, if we are replacing plated bolts more frequently, there is a possibility that the rock could become Swiss Cheese with all the snapped off bolts.
I had enough break during install (I am a lunk) that I don't use5 piece bolts at all except at the anchor.
And I hate cap bolts with a passion as you can't inspect the bolt. Doesn't mean I want forced compliance to my way.
Tylerpratt · · Litchfield, Connecticut · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 40
derek peavey wrote:If plated steel is the devils metal than why does Fixe and Climbtech still carry them. Shouldn't they be the first ones to stop if plated is so bad. Giving climbers limited access to them. We also need to contact the headquarters of Hilti and Powers. Tell them they need to stop making plated steel bolts because all of those bridges and buildings being build that have plated steel are all ticking time bombs and we are all going to die. Just think, the building you are in right now at this moment has a plated steel bolt and its starting to break. Watch out!
Well then!

1) Fixe and Climbtech are companies. This means they are in the business of making money. That's what companies do, they make money! So as long as people keep buying a product they will keep supplying it! Pretty simple!

2) Bridges and Buildings are not built the same way as natural rock and the bolts are not as exposed to weather as you might think they would. I.E they aren't bolted on a face that naturally seeps water is backed by dirt (sometimes) and gets nailed by sun and acid rain, etc etc etc.

3) The people that built those buildings (if they are a shit construction co) will put plated steel in the install areas that get exposed to weather unless otherwise specified not to do so. We had problems with this with certain ex-contractors in CT. I'm sure it still happens though.

Arguing that plated steel is just as good as stainless is ignorant at best. The only place that plated would supersede stainless is in the weight of your wallet.

The science explains it all.

I understand you were being sarcastic.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Mike Lane wrote: I had enough break during install (I am a lunk) that I don't use5 piece bolts at all except at the anchor.
Or just someone who doesn't use a torque wrench?

"So how is having fewer routes available a greater value?"

Lets say because I value minimizing impacts on the resource and safety over a long period. I value the QUALITY rather the QUANTITY. What I tried to emphasize before but I think you missed was that people have different value systems. For you it seems you value quantity as the most important value. Others might value quality hardware and safety over time. So where you're like, "Whoa this place has a lot of value" with tons of PS routes. I might look at it and see a lot of crap hardware that will just need to be redone better down the road. And its not like (your value, quantity) will be lost, its just a slower development time frame as it costs more and thus more time to buy the good stuff.

As for making standards.. it should be something of an educational process whereby through knowledge you realize the value of SS over PS in the same way that you find greater value in dynamic ropes over hemp ropes. You pay a hell of a lot more for that dynamic rope. Why would you think having 10 70m hemp ropes more valuable than having 1 70m dynamic rope? You dont, the value in hemp is less because you've been taught of and are able to rationalize their inferiority. You realize that when the cheap shit breaks someone usually gets hurt... and thus you value the saftey over time and thus quality of gear, rather than just the quantity.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northern Utah & Idaho
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