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Belay devices for multipitch

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Phill T wrote: look up the 'pulley effect'. Its very real if a bit difficult to visualize: How much weight is on the top draw after a lead fall has come to rest where the belayer was pulled off the ground (both climbers are suspended but stationary)? How is it different if the belayer is still on the ground but the climber is suspended?
The pulley effect is a bit diminished in this specific scenario because the belayer's weight is not being supported by the ground, but by the anchor. In this case, the anchor sees the full weight of the belayer regardless if the climber falls or not (assuming a full hanging belay). That does not occur in a single pitch environment as the belayer's weight is supported by the ground normally. The pulley effect can still apply, although I suspect it's mostly moot in this scenario--belay off the master point or redirect--it probably doesent matter much for a top rope fall if the belayer is hanging off the anchor with his entire weight. If the belayer is standing on an incline, then we would probably see a difference in force, but even then we are talking maybe 0.5kN difference. Top rope falls produce very little peak force, typically 1-2kN only.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
jbrown2 wrote:I have never been in a position where as a belayer it was impossible to give a softer catch.
I would say any time you don't have sight on your leader would qualify....
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Or a hanging belay...

Andre H. · · Boulder · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 5

Just here to talk about systems, guys. Let's get super micro about our details, yeah...

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241

^^^^Coincidentally, that's how I belay my follower: to completion.

Bill M · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 317
I'm following this guys lead.

Well not literally of course, but if Croft feels it's worth the extra 160 grams to carry a grigri into the alpine it must be worth something?
Kees van der Heiden · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 40

I like the good old Munter Hitch for anything multipitch. Now, I am a pretty mediocre climber, doing some stuff in the Alps (nothing more then grade V+ rockclimbs or so) and a bunch of sport climbing. We are not really into projecting stuff very much, so usually the belayer isn't hanging in there for hours on end. And we mostly switch leads. That all makes the munter hidge a nice choice, simple, works perfectly fine, is quick, no need to change anything when the second becomes the leader. And I can't drop it...

For rapelling I carry an ATC, rapelling on a munter is crazy.

Edit:
Because I am new here I have to wait a bit before I can post new replies, so e her is my answer to Swabi's question below:
I am Dutch, so don't get on real rock half as much as I would like. Climbs were all over in the Alps, a lot of them in the Dolomites, so indeed the UIAA scale.

Climb Germany · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 2,505

@Kees: Where are located? Is that the UIAA system I see?

Rob D · · Queens, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30

Last week my partner forgot his belay device and we used a munter when belaying from above. I hadn't used one in years and I can safely say I'm not a fan. I remember it being much smoother than it actually is. Felt clunky and wasn't as smooth as either a grigri or atc guide. I really liked a munter for a while and was thinking about just using it but one day was enough for me. Give me convenience or give me death

ChossKing King · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 0

Tube-style offers 400lbs of brake slippage. This lowers forces put on gear during a fall. Grigri will make your gear more likely to pull. Tube style is also more versatile and lighter.

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493

Just to troll you guys, I recently bought a Omega Pacific rap ring to use as a rap device for 2 rope raps when I carry my grigri, as I don't like using biner block rappels. It works great, btw. Just ordered an SMC Rigging Ring to see which I like better.

will ar · · Vermont · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 290
ChossKing wrote:Tube-style offers 400lbs of brake slippage. This lowers forces put on gear during a fall. Grigri will make your gear more likely to pull. Tube style is also more versatile and lighter.
Think of all those times you've caught a whipper with an ATC and been lifted off the ground. Did a perceptible amount of rope slip through the device? I'd guess movement of the belayer (which will likely still occur at a hanging belay) has far more to do with the impact force than the type of device and I'd be interested to know the specifics of the Petzl data posted earlier in this forum. I wouldn't be surprised if they had belay devices on a fixed anchor point instead of a harness.

Ted Pinson wrote:anecdotally noticed that people were using Grigris on every single gear-pulling fall I've seen on Weekend Whipper.
Anecdotally I've noticed that people who climb hard and take a lot of falls are more likely to belay with gri gris. People who don't take falls don't have the opportunity to pull gear.
Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175
will ar wrote: ... Anecdotally I've noticed that people who climb hard and take a lot of falls are more likely to belay with gri gris. People who don't take falls don't have the opportunity to pull gear.
climbing friend,

yes.

atcs are for the leader must not fall, I will climb 5.10 for the rest of my life types. only a true maniac would want to be belayed by a device that relies 100% on the partner who is prone to human error, having a heart attack, taking falling climbing rocks to the head, etc.

I am aware the holy grigri is not "autolocking" or some kind of failsafe, and of the arguments against it, but it for obvious may even still do the catching in a fall if your belayer they are too excited remembering their last fun-time euro dance party during the crux, and throw both hands in the air off of brake strand, as this happens quite often in my country.

the holy grigri it is safer when used properly by attentive belayer yes.
Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039

@Brian Abram:

If you're serious, you just made my day.

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493
Derek DeBruin wrote:@Brian Abram: If you're serious, you just made my day.
I am actually serious.
Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039

Rad. Interested to hear how that works out.

Are you averse to simul-rapping then, I assume? What about the biner brake with 2 lockers?

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493
Derek DeBruin wrote:Rad. Interested to hear how that works out. Are you averse to simul-rapping then, I assume? What about the biner brake with 2 lockers?
I typically carry a 6mm tag line as a second rope. Rapping on a single strand of the 6mm isn't the best experience. Though I just bought a 6mm Esprit Alpine Personal Escape Rope, and it's maybe stiff enough to comfortably rap on a single strand (it's really ridiculous how stiff it is). I realize I could do some lowering or whatnot to get down as well, but again the ring seems really easy, and it's light and unobtrusive on the back loop of my harness. As far as a biner brake, it's still maybe more hassle than carrying the ring. we'll see. Still haven't formed a firm opinion
Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039

Not sure how big a lead line you're using (I'm assuming pretty skinny), but aren't you effectively rapping on a knot block anyway with a 6mm pull cord? And in that case, why the aversion to knot blocks? As you note, it's too skinny to rap on by itself. You might consider lowering anyway as a way to get the rope and tag line to their intended locations without have to saddlebag if there are high winds.

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493

I rap on both strands: typically an 8.5-8.7mm lead line tied to the 6mm cord with a single EDK. Yeah sure, the 6mm cord does tend to pull into the rings sometimes a little bit. The stiffness of my new cord is designed to allow it to flow at about the same rate as a full single rope. The main aversion is I don't like pulling big knots (and maybe a biner) down and having them get hung up on everydamnthing. Lowering just feels like more potential shenanigans i don't wanna deal with. Except in certain cases like when you can lower your partner to the ground to grab the tag line so you can get down. In other cases, the ring is easy, light, and unobtrusive. Or at least it seems to be so far. I'll let you know if I die.

Another potential use I can see myself using the ring for: as a simple rap device when out soloing easy stuff. Munters suck

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039
Brian Abram wrote:I'll let you know if I die.
Looking forward to that ;)
Thanks. Maybe I'll add this to the bag of tricks, too.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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