The Devils Lake top rope cluster Fu&k thread...

I think seat belt webbing is pretty close to strength of 2 inch webbing. Just happens to be flat instead of tubular style. But agree that using is makes for more question about the total know how behind the person who set this up. Anybody see any hardware store rope or clothesline in use lately?

Seth, it looks like it could be, there there was no way I was going to find out with a person on the rope at the time!

jon jugenheimer wrote:Seth, it looks like it could be, there there was no way I was going to find out with a person on the rope at the time!

Yeah, we might look suspect carrying a crowbar around and 'testing' belay anchor cracks,,,,But if we wear our official 'Belay Police' shirts nobody should question our intent, right? Think of the fun we could have doing that some dull day.

What I notice on some of these, is how close to the edge folks are to build these. I'm guessing they rarely are tethered to something when they do this? Sure, it's unlikely you'll slip, but if you do...

One of my favorite threads. Thanks, all!

To my knowledge, we have only had one death while setting a TR in the last 30 years - pine needles are dangerous! It was actually a pretty sad, messy, and traumatic case.

There have also been incidences of hikers falling over the edge, but those *usually* don't end up as deaths.

Doug Hemken wrote:To my knowledge, we have only had one death while setting a TR in the last 30 years - pine needles are dangerous! It was actually a pretty sad, messy, and traumatic case. There have also been incidences of hikers falling over the edge, but those *usually* don't end up as deaths.

There are tons of absurd and comically bad anchors in this thread, but has anyone actually died or been seriously injured with a TR anchor failing at Devils Lake?

I'm with you, Helen: "it's unlikely you'll slip, but if you do... "
Why take unecessary risk? Rock and Ice rockandice.com/lates-news/h… suggests this: "...take care not to stray near the edge where you might trip over tree roots, slip on pine needles or just stumble over your feet. When you arrive near the toproping area, inspect your anchor options. As you creep close to the cliff’s edge, tether yourself to a large tree or anchor, using a second rope brought for this purpose. Attach yourself to this tether rope with a Grigri, or, lacking that, a standard belay device, and self-belay to the edge. Be sure to tie a figure-eight loop knot in the end of the tether rope so you can’t slide off the end. When you reach the anchor position, lock off your self-belay by tying a figure-eight loop in the rope just behind your device, on the brake-hand side."

Doug Hemken wrote:To my knowledge, we have only had one death while setting a TR in the last 30 years - pine needles are dangerous! It was actually a pretty sad, messy, and traumatic case. There have also been incidences of hikers falling over the edge, but those *usually* don't end up as deaths.

I agree that few falls or deaths have happened. Huge groups like the now defunct Iowa Mountaineers had a perfect no-death record over 40+ years at DL and even on big expeditions around the globe.
As for slick rolly pine needles: they are awful just hiking up the block steps on the CCC trail, let alone on edge of cliff while setting up belays. Add rain, and wet slick lichen covered rock and you can have some nasty spills. I always prefer to set up anchors back from edge, and have enough sling or static line to get over the edge for carabiners. I test the length out for sure before even attaching the biners or rope. Once I know it is equalized and will reach, then I place the double biners, one a locking biner, of equal inner diameter so the rope slides over both equally and not just over the shortest biner. Toss it and make sure it got down to the bottom. Hate to pull rope back up and have to re-try. Just a sense of pride, besides wasted effort and time.

Doug Hemken wrote:To my knowledge, we have only had one death while setting a TR in the last 30 years - pine needles are dangerous! It was actually a pretty sad, messy, and traumatic case. There have also been incidences of hikers falling over the edge, but those *usually* don't end up as deaths.

Being in Idaho, my brain is going to think of the incredibly competent Teton guide who died recently. Oddly, I'm not much afraid of dying myself (my bike commute is far more dangerous in my mind), but I really care about the people I'm with (usually in their twenties) and really, really don't want them to have that splat in their head to live with.

Re: pine needles, not usually an issue here, but I recently asked for "best shoes for cheetgrass" advice on a different forum, because I'm getting tired of butt glissade descents when I'm out hiking steep hills!

Oh, and I'm in the tether camp, if for no other reason than to keep in practice, and also let someone else feel more comfortable considering it for themselves.

Best, Helen

My motivation for tossing that out there was to remind the locals that it is not 100% safe to be untethered ... even though I routinely scramble down to certain ledges myself.

I've heard via email that there was another bad accident in the 80s, before my time here.

My impression is that tethering to set an anchor is becoming much more common, esp. in the last 5 years. My biggest concern (not really that big) is that this means the proportion of climbers who are confident scrambling is shrinking.

But we each get to make our own decisions, and it certainly makes me nervous to see certain people scrambling!

Yeah, one very recently (albeit - not at DL).

Based on the fact that it's nuts with a cordallette, it's fairly reasonable to guess that may have been built on lead. It's really common to lead up an easier line then set a TR for the harder climb next to it...way to get a little more mileage out of your anchors.

I pretty much always tether when hanging out at the edge. It just takes 1 slip or wind gust. I have never heard of TR anchors failing (which is really telling, given this thread), but there was a woman who fell while setting an anchor and was tethered to a tricam, which ripped. If you are going to tether, try to avoid dyneema, and natural anchors are always better as single piece anchors. Shock loading static goods is just not a good idea.

I don't recall the specific details but a few years ago TR anchor failed and the climber was injured. It was a man and woman climbing together. He set up the rope, she climbed the route and when she weighted the rope to lower the anchor let go. I was going to boulder on the north shore that day and the med flight helicopter was in the parking lot. The ranger gave the vague details he had. Only time I have ever heard of a TR anchor failing.

I've seen top rope anchors fail, 30yrs ago, 2 guys where top roping Berkley, we where on the Mouse's Tail, seen blur of a climber and a rope come down, he was being lowered and the anchor failed, he fell about 80ft, landed in the boulders, bad head injurie, and the ankle was the size of a grapefruit, smelled like he crapped his pants, they only had two anchors in, sling around a large boulder, and a stopper, they did not equalize anchors, stopper pulled and the top rope biners, slid off the good sling, as they put it on top of the sling not thru it,

most falls from the top are from Opps, slips or miss steps or screw ups, using anchors to protect yourself near the top of the cliff, good idea, more deaths have happened from opps then climbing at the D.L.

Thought the anchor with the cordelette was safe, from what I could see, used the same crack many times. it looks like its on Iron Mongers.

So I've been thinking for the last few years (maybe since I've been reading this thread) about the fact that very often, the first time you load an anchor while top-roping is when you're at the top. It's a long way down from there. If jumping on someone else's rope as the first climb (especially if they didn't rap down their rope), maybe it's a good idea to do a bit of a bounce test a few feet off the ground, and then continue climbing.

Usually, if I'm getting on someone else's rope, a few people in their party have already done laps on it. But I think it's quite possible I've gotten on another rope that's been set up and hanging unused, and I've asked if I can jump on it without thinking too much about their anchor or knowing if it's been weighted yet.

Gokul wrote:...the first time you load an anchor while top-roping is when you're at the top. It's a long way down from there...

I usually rap down the route right after building my anchor. This is similar safety-wise as loading at the top on TR for first time, but at least for others contemplating using the rope, the anchor has already been tested by me.

A bottom bounce test seems like a good idea.

Every climb I set up, even the ones I set over and over in same method, when back at the bottom I haul ass up the rope by hand and bounce test each set up every time out. Swing side to side, pull, jump down, etc. They may look good, but why not check it out before the first use I say.

As Gukol points out in post above a bounce test close to the ground is a sound idea. For many years now myself and climbing partners will test not only the TR set up but also your harness buckling job, knot and belayers device by climbing up a few feet (4 or 5 feet) and fully weighting the system. This confirms that all systems are go while you are still "close" to the ground and you can now concentrate on the climbing movement. Get back on the ground and start pullin down. Free yer mind and your body will follow! We also do this when leading too. On sport routes when you get to the first bolt, clip in ( a locker is a wise choice) , look at your knot, alert your belayer, and hang on the system. Hopefully It confirms all systems are go while your close to the deck and once again frees up yer mind. Same deal for trad leads you just have to make sure you are "very " confident in that first piece. Even just holding both sides of the rope and weighting your harness checks both harness and knot. I should add that I mainly do the above to check my knot, harness, and to see if' my belayer is awake, I'm not to worried about my TR set up.
At DL on our top rope set ups some one would grasp both sides of the rope and would swing around like a crazed monkey. Good enough for us.

Sorry for the spew. Now puke!

Or just inspect the anchor and know what constitutes a solid anchor.

^ some folks don't know what that is.

Morgan Patterson wrote:Or just inspect the anchor and know what constitutes a solid anchor.

The hardest thing to know here is whether or not any of the blocks are rockers. A light tug with your hand won't always tell you.