Guide/Instructor Tipping

One more note.

If you contact a guide on the AMGA's site and offer "$250 to take me up X," you'll get a response saying "my rate for X is X." That guide will be insured, permitted, and will be working within a code of conduct.

chris magness wrote: As a guide, I've encoutered both AMGA certified guides and uncertified guides that aren't worth a damn. This is because of complacency or inability to teach or both. I'd encourage you to hire a well established guide, an individual or an outfit, with liability insurance and a permit structure.

On the flipside of this, there are many quality guides, both AMGA certified and not. Easiest way to find them is the second sentence from Chris I quoted here...

chris magness wrote:One more note. If you contact a guide on the AMGA's site and offer "$250 to take me up X," you'll get a response saying "my rate for X is X." That guide will be insured, permitted, and will be working within a code of conduct.

If you head to the Adirondacks, $250 is enough for a day with AMGA guide and a good tip. There's plenty of guides at the top of their game aren't AMGA too.

Br3tt wrote: The interplay between an individual making personal profit on land that taxpayers fund makes complete sense and is something that hadn't even entered my mind before. It's a very good point and one that I can't really argue against.

You might also think about traffic lights being necessary for freeway on ramps, for people who choose to drive in at least one western state! Lol!

Seriously, it's similar. Limited resources, unlimited people doing whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they feel like it, is just no longer feasible for everyone, everywhere, every locale, all the time.

Derek, thanks for the good, detailed explanations. We have both ways here, and everything in between. Book that dream whitewater wilderness trip with the pros, or, walk out the front door and go have fun. Brett, work those two aspects appropriately, and I think you will find there is still plenty out there to enjoy. Guides for what you should be paying them for, MPers for beer and dinner trips, if you don't want to just go for it in a new place. Or, beta from the locals on here, then go. Or...turn the door knob.

Have fun! Helen

Bill, think my point may have been lost there.

Guides will have a rate based on their overhead and experience. You can propose a rate, but you're likely to get a response such as the one I listed. The OP is looking to pay less by hiring a guide operating without the cost of insurance or permitting. Because of code of conduct, any AMGA certified guide will have these overheads and confines of that code. Any uncertified guide working to a good standard will have the same limitations.

chris magness wrote:Bill, think my point may have been lost there. Guides will have a rate based on their overhead and experience. You can propose a rate, but you're likely to get a response such as the one I listed. The OP is looking to pay less by hiring a guide operating without the cost of insurance or permitting. Because of code of conduct, any AMGA certified guide will have these overheads and confines of that code. Any uncertified guide working to a good standard will have the same limitations.

I was just throwing it out there that the OP could travel to Keene NY if he wants to pay $250/day for a guide. I wasnt posting something to prove you wrong or anything.

Edit: the rates in the Adirondacks arent based on overhead and experience but that's not something I'm going to discuss on a public forum :)

Josh Janes wrote: I think 15-20% should be considered standard. Guiding, much like with climbing partnerships, is fundamentally a relationship

Josh, I'm not from the USA, and find this very interesting. I can see how US tipping culture has grown from the basis of very low rates / subsistence wages in the service industry - but didn't realise it extended to guides / professional advice. I wouldn't have considered tipping a guide without reading this thread. I've been very happy to pay good money for a good guide, and if the experience included developing a relationship of trust / enjoyment etc with the guide, so much the better, and I'd hire that guide again in preference to others. Are guides really that poorly paid that you have to supplement wages / income with tips? As an outsider, I feel that "tipping" establishes an uncomfortable disparity in status, whereas paying a good wage for a great service is a recognition of professional ability, and in no way precludes a relationship developing. Apparently that is not how it works in the USA, so I'm interested in your perspective as a guide.

PS: Scott Massey, if you are reading this, I'm very sorry to have "stiffed" you!

20 kN wrote: Indeed. Guiding is not about just climbing, it's about teaching and providing an experience. As a guide you'll teach people to climb who don't even know how to tie a figure eight. A guide's job is not to send a route with his client, it's to accomplish whatever goals the client has. In many cases, the guide is teaching entry level skills.

I agree with both you and Ryan. Part of the reason I am pursuing this is becuase I have had many experiences with novice and new climbers. Everything from teaching them how to tie figure 8s to multipitch routes. I enjoy teaching and spreading knowledge, whether it be climbing, running, engineering, or anything. My statement was that I would not get a guide, simply because of my personal goals and ambitions. I will however go and take a course to learn new skills that I cant learn anywhere else and practice in a controlled environment to later execute on my own.

When I guided I never expected a tip but they were always welcomed. Guides don't make that much cash. The best guide I knew, highest level AMGA rock certs, masters educated, working his butt off and real good at it made well under 30k a year.

So, I always thought tipping from 10-25% made sense. 10% was a thanks for doing the basics and 25% was for going above and beyond.

In regard to why hire a guide?
1. To learn skills.
2. To "buy" a solid partner when you don't have one.
3. To cover a huge amount of terrain and tick off awesome routes without having to do any planning.

Only have 2 days in town and you don't want to spend hours on mountain project scouring routes and driving to local shops buying guidebooks? Hire a guide who can maximize your time on the rock and then send you on your way. I strongly believe that is the best reason to hire a guide that is rarely taken advantage of for seasoned climbers.

Alex, my point in posting wasn't to get into a discussion of how weird American tipping culture is but simply to answer the original poster's question about what is expected. But yes, it is uncommon for a climbing guide in America to make a living solely on their guiding income (let alone if tips were removed from the equation). By the way, if you'd like Scott Massey's contact info so you could send him a belated tip, message me and I'll be happy to give it to you!

I have his details, thanks, and no doubt will hire him again as I really enjoyed the experience - sounds like I'll need to express that sentiment in a more concrete fashion though...

Alex Rogers wrote:I have his details, thanks, and no doubt will hire him again as I really enjoyed the experience - sounds like I'll need to express that sentiment in a more concrete fashion though...

You better tip him, Alex, or I'm flying to Australia RIGHT NOW!! THen I'm stopping somewhere in europe to pound that 123mountain maggot!11!

IM TOUGH!1!!

I once had a client that was super apologetic about not having any cash at the end of the day but offered to PayPal me later. I said "no problem at all" and then even arranged for a discount on merchandise at our local climbing shop for him for some gear he needed. Several days later still no tip so I emailed him and tactfully reminded him. Not even a response. Two years go by and then he emails me out of the blue telling me how great his day was and that he'd be returning to Vegas in a couple months - asking if I would guide him again! I responded with a warm greeting but told him that I felt a bit misled and, dare I say, insulted by this tip thing (and moreover his lack of communication on the issue) but that perhaps it was all just a mistake: giving him a way to do the right thing and save face. If he did I would have absolutely climbed with him again, but it was a moot point: never heard from him again. He probably hired another guide and stiffed that one too.

Kinda amusing that Alex says he feels bad about unknowingly stiffing Scott Massey (an understandable mistake especially for someone from a non-tipping country) but then given the chance to do the right thing merely blows it off.

Josh Janes wrote:I once had a client that was super apologetic about not having any cash at the end of the day but offered to PayPal me later. I said "no problem at all" and then even arranged for a discount on merchandise at our local climbing shop for him for some gear he needed. Several days later still no tip so I emailed him and tactfully reminded him. Not even a response. Two years go by and then he emails me out of the blue telling me how great his day was and that he'd be returning to Vegas in a couple months - asking if I would guide him again! I responded with a warm greeting but told him that I felt a bit misled and, dare I say, insulted by this tip thing (and moreover his lack of communication on the issue) but that perhaps it was all just a mistake: giving him a way to do the right thing and save face. If he did I would have absolutely climbed with him again, but it was a moot point: never heard from him again. He probably hired another guide and stiffed that one too. Kinda amusing that Alex says he feels bad about unknowingly stiffing Scott Massey (an understandable mistake especially for someone from a non-tipping country) but then given the chance to do the right thing merely blows it off.

I think its great to tip but there is no obligation. Everyone is putting tip slots on payment receipts nowadays. It's one thing if a guy says he is going to and doesnt, but I dont consider guiding something in which a tip is required.

Pete Spri wrote: I think its great to tip but there is no obligation. Everyone is putting tip slots on payment receipts nowadays. It's one thing if a guy says he is going to and doesnt, but I dont consider guiding something in which a tip is required.

Of course it's not "required", and I suspect most guides don't get too bent out of shape when a client doesn't tip. But when someone offers a lame excuse for not tipping (i.e. they can't plead "I didn't know tips were given") and then doesn't follow through - yea, this has happened to me - then GRRR!!!!!

Pete Spri wrote: I dont consider guiding something in which a tip is required.

Safe to say Pete is not a guide.

Josh Janes wrote: Safe to say Pete is not a guide.

Humor me, how much does it cost a client to go a whole day with you? 8 or 10 hours.

Pete Spri wrote: Humor me, how much does it cost a client to go a whole day with you? 8 or 10 hours.

Around here a full day private is about $300. The guide gets maybe a bit less than half of that.

"He probably hired another guide and stiffed that one too."

PM me his name, I'll track him down online and run him through the Burch Zone.

Derek DeBruin wrote: As for tips, they are always appreciated. Having been on the employee and owner end of a guide service, tips are always welcome and respected. For me, a tip isn't just money for beer or dinner out (though such offers are appreciated). That money goes to support me, my wife, and our son, it gets reinvested into our business, it pays rent, it replaces equipment, it puts food on the table. For a committed professional, a tip is the ultimate gesture of a job well done and accepted graciously.

Okay, where does the money go for the actual outing then?  Surely tips don't account for all the money you need to run the business and take care of your family.  Why not just roll the extra needed money into the cost of the outing, and then forget about the tips?  When I pay for the outing, why isn't THAT a gesture of respect and a job well done?

EDIT: I don't get a tip for doing my job.