Response to Flash Foxy & Outside Magazine Article

Right, I'm so silly! I totally forgot. Since I'm a woman and I hate Trump, I must totally be over the moon about our other political option. Thanks again for reminding me.

Can you also remind me again how to use the clippy thingy that you put on your harness??

Burcheydawwwwwwg wrote: Wasn't there a thread over on the Taco about a simul-raping accident?

I mean, this is kinda funny. More than 2/10 for sure.

It might even beat a somewhat provocative discussion based off a very poorly written article.

It's also in bad taste and I agree to fight Adam Burch wherever and whenever I find him.

A pretty typical gym scenario-- a guy flails on a boulder problem, and then another male immediately moves in to float up the route.

How to perceive such an event?

1) it didn't mean anything- the second guy was just inspired to try the problem after seeing the first guy try it.
2) it doesn't mean anything-it's just natural for people to be competitive.
3)it's an act of aggression-one male is trying ( mostly likely subconsciously)to establish dominance over the other male. A pecking order is being established.

Depending on your perspective, it could be terribly stressful to go to a gym...

freedom of speech

@ClimbLikeAGirl - Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm sorry that my letter, though brash, was interpreted as me dismissing the issue because it's most certainly not the case. The purpose of the letter was to specifically address the mislabeling of certain behaviors often witnessed in the gym as sexual harassment or gender discrimination as the article suggested. Sexual harassment and gender discrimination are both pretty big accusations to throw around loosely considering people lose their jobs over it. Hence why the article was frustrating from a male perspective (or at least mine and a few others I’ve spoken with) when the topics of staring, advice, and flirtation came up. Granted, flirtation is a pretty generic term, but throughout my letter I specifically state that when it becomes actual sexual harassment it is an entirely different subject.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote:Then there's the fact that other climbers always defer to my partner/boyfriend when asking "What did you climb today?" to which he usually responds that they should ask me since I'm the ropegun. I'm never taken seriously as a climber among a group of newly acquainted male climbers until I'm somehow able to work my resume into the conversation.

Not the reason I replied to your post, but thought I'd run something by you after reading this. I understand where you are coming from and I see your point of view. Though have you ever considered that maybe other male climbers don’t want to just walk up and start talking to another man’s girlfriend? It’s not uncommon for men to approach other men first, simply out of respect.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote:I implore anyone who witnesses any kind of sexist, misogynistic, or condescending behavior to speak up (especially men) and point it out to the offender regardless if it is in a climbing situation or not. Sure it's not pleasant to talk about, but the only way to change is to make the behavior known.

You've just listed one great example of ways to adequately deal with the issue should it arise.

This is actually why I decided to respond to your post. I agree with you wholeheartedly. When I said, "learning adequate ways to handle them appropriately is the obvious answer here" this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Calling someone out on the spot for condescending or disrespectful comments will most certainly make the individual take responsibility for their actions, but it will also likely deter future incidents from others.

Daniel Evans wrote:The guys who are making derogatory comments or thanking you for sending their project while they shake their head in shame are most likely just as big of a tool outside the climbing gym as they are inside. No one article or public announcement is ever going to change that kind of thinking from such a weak-minded individual. Let the key takeaway here though be that many of the issues you described in your article are derived from normal human behavior that will never go away no matter how many nasty grams you write for the male population – so learning adequate ways to handle them appropriately is the obvious answer here, not “safe spaces” because they don’t exist.

Meaning, deal with it the same way you deal with it at the store, at your school, at work, and everywhere else. By saying this, I am not personally condoning the behavior nor do I feel that women should ever be subjected to it in the first place by any means. I am simply saying it’s a sad fact in today’s world and we need to be prepared for it and deal with it when it happens instead of being a victim.

Yes, women should in fact be able to go to the gym (or anywhere for that matter) without some guy oogling or obviously staring at her and making her feel uncomfortable. Agreed, and nobody is saying otherwise. If we lived in some perfect utopia we wouldn’t even be here discussing this right now, but we don’t. The world we live in is a fucked up place and we need to be prepared for it. Obviously there are things we can do to make improvements and I am not saying we shouldn’t try, but they don’t happen overnight especially when discussing behavior that has been around for generations and generations. So in the mean time we as a community need to grow a spine, involve both sides equally, and confront the issue head on rather than take a passive aggressive approach to it. Is it possible to be realistic about the current situation of the world we live in while at the same time want the best for women everywhere? I'd like to think so.

That having been said, just to clarify my original stance – I think the one thing that has been widely misconstrued thus far from what I wrote is the level of degree to which I reference each behavior (ie. what necessarily constitutes harmless flirting, sexual harassment, etc?). I clearly do not believe that persistent, aggressive flirtation or staring with drool dripping on the floor is normal male behavior. I’m not an idiot.

I basically see three levels to this:

1.) Glancing/staring, flirtation, or advice that is harmless in nature but unwanted by the receiving party (What I am discussing in my letter and what the article claims to be 2 out of 3 issues that are making female climbers to feel uncomfortable in the gym)

2.) Glancing/staring, flirtation, or advice that is unwanted and clearly demeaning or abnormal for the situation

3.) Sexual harassment (Behavior persists after being explicitly told to stop)

When I said the below statement, I was referring to #2 and #3:

Daniel Evans wrote:For incidents of actual physical or verbal abuse (regardless of gender), these situations should be dealt with no differently inside the gym than they are currently dealt with outside the gym. This is obviously not acceptable in any way, shape, or form and should not be tolerated by anyone. If this is happening at your gym on a regular basis, you probably need to alert the staff or switch gyms because it is not “the norm” and it is most certainly not welcome in the community.

It is probably something I should have specified originally in greater detail but I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. It is pretty difficult to address every single possible scenario in just a short few page letter.

Colonel Mustard wrote: I mean, this is kinda funny. More than 2/10 for sure. It might even beat a somewhat provocative discussion based off a very poorly written article. It's also in bad taste and I agree to fight Adam Burch wherever and whenever I find him.

Photos or it didn't happen. Yoga pants, please. Bare chested, uh, bare knuckled. Yeah. That.

it willi be interesting if the encounter was with number 10 hex attached to a sling. and in the other hand a piolet

GE24 wrote: You are a worthless piece of garbage. Nothing you have ever said makes sense. You can't logically justify not wearing a helmet and now you say something like this. Keep riding your motorcycle. Since 70% of your friends have wrecked maybe you will too - and not be so lucky. The world will be a better place.

Waayyy, waay out of line. Viper contributes and is participating in this discussion. Participating. Contributing. Look them up in the dictionary. Shit slinging is not participating. Nor contributing. Your words say a lot about you. Your profile does too.

Sanllan wrote:it willi be interesting if the encounter was with number 10 hex attached to a sling. and in the other hand a piolet

Hey, go back aways and find the street fighting with climbing stuff thread. Not the recent ice axe Bollywood deal, although that's pretty entertaining too. It's a hoot.

Daniel Evans wrote:I understand where you are coming from and I see your point of view. Though have you ever considered that maybe other male climbers don’t want to just walk up and start talking to another man’s girlfriend? It’s not uncommon for men to approach other men first, simply out of respect.

Daniel, it is great that you are trying to understand - but maybe there is still room for reflection on your entrenched attitudes... I just laughed when I read the above. So you walk up to a male/female pair of climbers, and you automatically assume she is "his girlfriend"? And if they were romantically entangled, that it would somehow be disrespectful to address her? You need to somehow get HIS permission to address her?

It can be interesting to read up on unconscious bias, and then try really hard to explore your own biases - I've done it and learned a lot about myself, some of it quite uncomfortable. You sound like you are a decent thoughtful guy, you might consider stepping away from defending your case (which is very comprehensively made, now) and reading up some more on the literature / psychology.

Alex Rogers wrote: Daniel, it is great that you are trying to understand - but maybe there is still room for reflection on your entrenched attitudes... I just laughed when I read the above. So you walk up to a male/female pair of climbers, and you automatically assume she is "his girlfriend"? And if they were romantically entangled, that it would somehow be disrespectful to address her? You need to somehow get HIS permission to address her? It can be interesting to read up on unconscious bias, and then try really hard to explore your own biases - I've done it and learned a lot about myself, some of it quite uncomfortable. You sound like you are a decent thoughtful guy, you might consider stepping away from defending your case (which is very comprehensively made, now) and reading up some more on the literature / psychology.

Thanks Alex. I just said it's a common thing for men to do. Obviously more traditional in nature. Again, just because I offered it as a possible scenario does not mean that I've thrown my stamp of approval on it. It was meant to imply that the man approaching the couple isn't always necessarily thinking to himself, "Yeah I'll ask the guy because that bitch probably doesn't know."

Daniel Evans wrote:Not the reason I replied to your post, but thought I'd run something by you after reading this. I understand where you are coming from and I see your point of view. Though have you ever considered that maybe other male climbers don’t want to just walk up and start talking to another man’s girlfriend? It’s not uncommon for men to approach other men first, simply out of respect

My partner and I actually had a really indepth conversation about all of this yesterday. Sure we can both think of examples where it would be appropriate to ask a male climber a question instead of his female partner, but these are primarily related to proximity (e.g. he gives you eye contact, nods or greets you first, they are not near each other and the male is closer to you, etc.). I would never complain that a guy walked up to my partner to ask for directions and didn't include me while I was 25 ft away coiling the rope. What I DO complain about is when said guy walks PAST me to specifically ask a male partner. I do understand that some guys are intimidated to talk to women (something my partner pointed out as a possibility) so I try to be conscious of that.

My example occurs when he and I are both standing around a campfire with an assortment of fellow traveling climbers (usually about 100% male) after a killer day of climbing and said male climbers pointedly defer to my partner when asking "so what did you (singular) climb today?" when I'm very much standing right next to him, trying to be part of the conversation. I could never imagine walk up to a climbing team and specifically asking one person "so what did you lead today?" while leaving their partner out. It's rude and condescending.

However, I will point out an inequality that we discussed:
I really enjoy watching other women crush. It's inspiring and wonderful to see other ladies who get after it. I was in a situation in a gym where I lowered off a route and laid on the mat for a while to watch another women start leading up the same route I had just done. I did not mean to do this in a creep way, I just wanted to see her excel. I imagined though if I was a man doing this, it would be perceived as creepy, even if his intentions were no different than mine. Sure it's probably unfair, especially if you're a guy who is also inspired by women climbing hard, but if you're not certain how your actions will be percieved, maybe it's best to just let her train and do her thing and give her personal space. Is it really too much to ask for?

This isn't to say men can't have a conversation with a female climber at all. Quite the opposite. I gave my partner the example of pretending she's just a dude and treat her no different (this might not be the best way to do it for everyone...). What really makes the difference is your ability to ask yourself, "What are my intentions?" or "Am I acting/sounding creepy right now?" or consider the situation from her perspective. Putting thought into one's own actions really is the first step.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote: My partner and I actually had a really indepth conversation about all of this yesterday. Sure we can both think of examples where it would be appropriate to ask a male climber a question instead of his female partner, but these are primarily related to proximity (e.g. he gives you eye contact, nods or greets you first, they are not near each other and the male is closer to you, etc.). I would never complain that a guy walked up to my partner to ask for directions and didn't include me while I was 25 ft away coiling the rope. What I DO complain about is when said guy walks PAST me to specifically ask a male partner. I do understand that some guys are intimidated to talk to women (something my partner pointed out as a possibility) so I try to be conscious of that. My example occurs when he and I are both standing around a campfire with an assortment of fellow traveling climbers (usually about 100% male) after a killer day of climbing and said male climbers pointedly defer to my partner when asking "so what did you (singular) climb today?" when I'm very much standing right next to him, trying to be part of the conversation. I could never imagine walk up to a climbing team and specifically asking one person "so what did you lead today?" while leaving their partner out. It's rude and condescending. However, I will point out an inequality that we discussed: I really enjoy watching other women crush. It's inspiring and wonderful to see other ladies who get after it. I was in a situation in a gym where I lowered off a route and laid on the mat for a while to watch another women start leading up the same route I had just done. I did not mean to do this in a creep way, I just wanted to see her excel. I imagined though if I was a man doing this, it would be perceived as creepy, even if his intentions were no different than mine. Sure it's probably unfair, especially if you're a guy who is also inspired by women climbing hard, but if you're not certain how your actions will be percieved, maybe it's best to just let her train and do her thing and give her personal space. Is it really too much to ask for? This isn't to say men can't have a conversation with a female climber at all. Quite the opposite. I gave my partner the example of pretending she's just a dude and treat her no different (this might not be the best way to do it for everyone...). What really makes the difference is your ability to ask yourself, "What are my intentions?" or "Am I acting/sounding creepy right now?" or consider the situation from her perspective. Putting thought into one's own actions really is the first step.

This happens to me too but it's because I'm fat. Guys will walk past me too to question my partner also about what he/she climbed.

So if men talk to a female climber, they are wrong, and if they don't they are wrong.

I know this is overly simplistic, but that is what this discussion sounds like it has turned into.

Eric Carlos wrote:So if men talk to a female climber, they are wrong, and if they don't they are wrong. I know this is overly simplistic, but that is what this discussion sounds like it has turned into.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote: This isn't to say men can't have a conversation with a female climber at all. Quite the opposite.

Not sure where you pulled that one from. You really like to read out of context.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote: Sure it's probably unfair, especially if you're a guy who is also inspired by women climbing hard, but if you're not certain how your actions will be percieved, maybe it's best to just let her train and do her thing and give her personal space.

I think this is a point that is being overlooked repeatedly by many men in this thread. Your intentions and how you think your actions should be interpreted are mostly irrelevant. If your actions or words are making someone feel uncomfortable or unsafe, you are in no position to argue otherwise. The only thing you can and should do is to realize how you might be perceived and adjust what you're doing.

Lynn hill once said about this topic: "Where would I go, if I could go, who would I be, if I could be, what would I say, if I had a voice, who says this, saying it's me? Answer simply, someone answer simply. It's the same old stranger as ever, for whom alone accusative I exist, in the pit of my inexistence, of his, of ours, there's a simple answer. It's not with thinking he'll find me, but what is he to do, living and bewildered, yes, living, say what he may. Forget me, know me not, yes, that would be the wisest, none better able than he. Why this sudden affability after such desertion, it's easy to understand, that's what he says, but he doesn't understand. I'm not in his head, nowhere in his old body, and yet I'm there, for him I'm there, with him, hence all the confusion. That should have been enough for him, to have found me absent, but it's not, he wants me there, with a form and a world, like him, in spite of him, me who am everything, like him who is nothing. And when he feels me void of existence it's of his he would have me void, and vice versa, mad, mad, he's mad. The truth is he's looking for me to kill me, to have me dead like him, dead like the living. He knows all that, but it's no help his knowing it, I don't know it, I know nothing. He protests he doesn't reason and does nothing but reason, crooked, as if that could improve matters. He thinks words fail him, he thinks because words fail him he's on his way to my speechlessness, to being speechless with my speechlessness, he would like it to be my fault that words fail him, of course words fail him. He tells his story every five minutes, saying it is not his, there's cleverness for you. He would like it to be my fault that he has no story, of course he has no story, that's no reason for trying to foist one on me. That's how he reasons, wide of the mark, but wide of what mark, answer us that. He has me say things saying it's not me, there's profundity for you, he has me who say nothing say it's not me. All that is truly crass. If at least he would dignify me with the third person, like his other figments, not he, he'll be satisfied with nothing less than me, for his me. When he had me, when he was me, he couldn't get rid of me quick enough, I didn't exist, he couldn't have that, that was no kind of life, of course I didn't exist, any more than he did, of course it was no kind of life, now he has it, his kind of life, let him lose it, if he wants to be in peace, with a bit of luck. His life, what a mine, what a life, he can't have that, you can't fool him, ergo it's not his, it's not him, what a thought, treat him like that, like a vulgar Molloy, a common Malone, those mere mortals, happy mortals, have a heart, land him in that shit, who never stirred, who is none but me, all things considered, and what things, and how considered, he had only to keep out of it. That's how he speaks, this evening, how he has me speak, how he speaks to himself, how I speak, there is only me, this evening, here, on earth, and a voice that makes no sound because it goes towards none, and a head strewn with arms laid down and corpses fighting fresh, and a body, I nearly forgot. This evening, I say this evening, perhaps it's morning. And all these things, what things, all about me, I won't deny them any more, there's no sense in that any more. If it's nature perhaps it's trees and birds, they go together, water and air, so that all may go on, I don t need to know the details, perhaps I'm sitting under a palm. Or it's a room, with furniture, all that's required to make life comfortable, dark, because of the wall outside the window. What am I doing, talking, having my figments talk, it can only be me. Spells of silence too, when I listen, and hear the local sounds, the world sounds, see what an effort I make, to be reasonable. There's my life, why not, it is one, if you like, if you must, I don't say no, this evening. There has to be one, it seems, once there is speech, no need of a story, a story is not compulsory, just a life, that's the mistake I made, one of the mistakes, to have wanted a story for myself, whereas life alone is enough. I'm making progress, it was time, I'll learn to keep my foul mouth shut before I'm done, if nothing foreseen crops up. But he who somehow comes and goes, unaided from place to place, even though nothing happens to him, true, what of him? I stay here, sitting, if I'm sitting, often I feel sitting, sometimes standing, it's one or the other, or lying down, there's another possibility, often I feel lying down, it's one of the three, or kneeling. What counts is to be in the world, the posture is immaterial, so long as one is on earth. To breathe is all that is required, there is no obligation to ramble, or receive company, you may even believe yourself dead on condition you make no bones about it, what more liberal regimen could be imagined, I don't know, I don't imagine. No pomt under such circumstances in saying I am somewhere else, someone else, such as I am I have all I need to hand, for to do what, I don't know, all I have to do, there I am on my own again at last, what a relief that must be. Yes, there are moments, like this moment, when I seem almost restored to the feasible. Then it goes, all goes, and I'm far again, with a far story again, I wait for me afar for my story to begin, to end, and again this voice cannot be mine. That's where I'd go, if I could go, that's who I'd be, if I could be".

Old lady H wrote: Waayyy, waay out of line. Viper contributes and is participating in this discussion. Participating. Contributing. Look them up in the dictionary. Shit slinging is not participating. Nor contributing. Your words say a lot about you. Your profile does too.

Thanks for pointing this out. While some of the ideas being expressed are extreme, it is still a conversation with good participation from all sides. This thread is expanding my understanding of the range of opinions out there, and trying to shut someone down isn't adding to the conversation.

Anyone who thinks they have "the answer" is missing the point. I'm no social relativist, but there is obviously more complexity to the topic than we might like to think.

Please carry on y'all, at least some of us are learning from the discussion.

ClimbLikeAGirl wrote: What really makes the difference is your ability to ask yourself, "What are my intentions?" or "Am I acting/sounding creepy right now?" or consider the situation from her perspective.

Well said. If everyone followed this basic process in all of our thoughts and actions, the world would be a much nicer place.

I have a confession to make. I judge people with brand new tarantulaces or gym rental shoes to be noobs before I even see them climb. If I ask you if you are getting on that 5.6 route, its because of your shoes not your gender.