Helmets

There were two people top rope climbing with helmets on in our gym today!

Rock And Ice posted weekend whipper - a nasty fall on 5.13c Sport
Sweatpants in Public

https://vimeo.com/183018394

The relevant bit:
He needed seven staples to close his head wound..

amarius wrote: He needed seven staples to close his head wound..

It's because of the vertical video.

amarius wrote:Rock And Ice posted weekend whipper - a nasty fall on 5.13c Sport Sweatpants in Public vimeo.com/183018394 The relevant bit: He needed seven staples to close his head wound..

He wouldn't have needed any if he had paid attention to where his foot was in relation to the rope. In this case, a helmet would have treated the symptom of the problem, but done nothing to fix it's root.

kennoyce wrote: He wouldn't have needed any if he had paid attention to where his foot was in relation to the rope. In this case, a helmet would have treated the symptom of the problem, but done nothing to fix it's root.

He wouldn't have needed a rope if he had paid attention to his climbing and hadn't fallen. In this case, a rope only treated the symptom of the problem--falling--and did nothing to fix it's root.

n00b wrote: He wouldn't have needed a rope if he had paid attention to his climbing and hadn't fallen. In this case, a rope only treated the symptom of the problem--falling--and did nothing to fix it's root.

Ha ha. Well-said.

That guy literally speared the rock with his head. Holy cow!

Tim Lutz wrote: and glued but like sausage, don't worry about how it is made, just enjoy the permadrawed, ticked sausage and yes, Rifle and Maple are total chosspiles.

Someone say "sausage" ?

Seriously, though. That looked really bad. He's lucky he didn't break his neck pile-driving into the wall head-first.

Yeah, that video is graphic - I don't understand how people can look at that and think "I don't need a helmet cos I'd never do such a noob thing as get the rope behind my leg". Good luck to you - the rest of us who sometimes make errors should consider how best to mitigate the consequences of said errors. Personally, helmet=cheap insurance.

There climbers using helmets even for bouldering and they can do like v12´s. they say it helps them focus:

mountainproject.com/v/to-he…

Bye,

But how many of us wear a helmet for walking around? It's just a matter of time. . . walking helmets.

kennoyce wrote: He wouldn't have needed any if he had paid attention to where his foot was in relation to the rope. In this case, a helmet would have treated the symptom of the problem, but done nothing to fix it's root.

F*cking thank you Ken. Jebus. I have been watching this thread in mild "eye roll" mode for a few days now, but I just can't read anymore without saying something. Anyone else here notice that almost all of the bad fall examples listed on this thread that "require" a helmet involve having your leg behind the rope?

Want a sure fire way to not need a helmet while sport climbing? Don't ever put your stupid leg behind the rope. Period. Not by accident. Not because you were too busy "cruxing". Not because the route was traversing. Not because it was hard to scoop because of the bolt placement. Never. Period. When I was learning to climb, my mentors beat it into my head so relentlessly that I do it subconsciously. I take internal pride at my ability to scoop the rope in cruxy and stressful situations. And its on my mental checklist when I watch someone else. Do they maintain smooth footwork when in a difficult spot? Did they scoop the rope no matter what? These are the hallmarks of a climber with her sh*t together. And no, it doesn't matter if its 5.4 or 5.13, so crying that I am condescending to noobs is misplaced. If all of you helmet sermon givers spent as much time and effort striving for high standards of rope management composure instead of supplanting your skill set with "insurance helmet", then I wouldn't have to shake my head constantly every time I am out climbing because some idiot is cruxing with their leg behind the rope so badly that even with a helmet they are going to end up with a concussion.

And you better believe that I will rag on anyone I climb with -- noob or 15 year veteran --when they fail to keep their leg from behind the rope. And whenever I teach someone new to climb, I always make sure to communicate to them that there are two primary ways (beyond objective hazards) to get hurt sport climbing: gross pilot error on the part of the belayer, and letting your leg get stuck behind the rope. There are very few rules in climbing that I always follow because climbing inherently requires constant risk assessment and judgement calls that are situationally dependent. But you want an "absolute" statement: Wearing a helmet is a poor substitute for never letting your leg get behind the rope.

Alex Rogers wrote: I don't understand how people can look at that and think "I don't need a helmet cos I'd never do such a noob thing as get the rope behind my leg". Good luck to you - the rest of us who sometimes make errors should consider how best to mitigate the consequences of said errors. Personally, helmet=cheap insurance.

I don't look at that video and think "boy, what a noob". I watch that video and think "boy, what a f*cking idiot that he had his leg behind the rope so badly that he took an inverted, wall crashing fall on a severely overhung route". This isn't a noob thing. Its a pay attention to important details thing. Its no different than checking your knot every time you leave the ground. Failing to do so is inviting trouble.

Part of what bugs me is the self-righteousness of the always-wear-a-helmet crowd. And this is coming from someone who always wears a helmet while ice climbing, trad climbing, run-out climbing, or multi-pitch climbing. In other words, I wear a helmet situationally. Why? Because I hate helmets and my risk-to-comfort assessment at a non-choss sport venue allows me to forgo wearing a helmet without worrying about it. And that is my choice. You get your choice. And the rules of not being a human snotty douche nozzle means that I don't rag on you crash helmet folks for wearing a helmet every time you leave your house and in exchange, you crash helmet folks are not condescending snots to me because I don't. Seriously, when I was learning to ice climb I couldn't imagine going up to Alex Lowe and telling him that he is an idiot for not wearing a helmet when climbing in Hyalite. Sheesh folks, get a grip.

n00b wrote: He wouldn't have needed a rope if he had paid attention to his climbing and hadn't fallen. In this case, a rope only treated the symptom of the problem--falling--and did nothing to fix it's root.

This is such poor logic that its not worth the effort to refute.

John Badila wrote:But how many of us wear a helmet for walking around? It's just a matter of time. . .

Coming down the descent trail of the Pinnacle in Cheyenne Canyon yesterday with a friend, we both decide to keep our helmets on. Which was good, because both of us slipped and slid down the loose scree.

J Albers, it's a satire of the poor logic of the post above it.

Helmets and ropes are safety equipment. They are there to mitigate the consequences of a mistake. There is a difference of degree, certainly, but not in principle. Reasonable people can disagree on the necessity to take mitigating precautions, and what methods are appropriate. But to say "well the helmet didn't address the cause of the accident" misses the purpose of safety equipment.

It's like arguing "if you're gonna drive drunk, don't bother with a seatbelt because it won't address the likely cause of your accident."

I believe the risk is higher for the belayer, because once in a (long) while the leader breaks a hold off. The result of an incapacitated belayer is often worse than an incapacitated leader. I sometimes give my helmet to the belayer when I lead.
In 35 years, I've been saved by a helmet three times. Two of those times, I got hit with rocks in the "intermediate" size range. Small enough for a helmet to save you, but big enough to kill or incapacitate you if you weren't wearing a helmet. I could think "hey, a helmet hasn't helped for more than 10 years, so it is probably safe without it." But, I'm so used to wearing the helmet that I rarely even think about the option of not wearing it.
I've noticed that at our local areas (Flagstaff, AZ), helmets have become much more common over the last 20 years, both at the sport and trad crags. There seems to be no stigma attached to helmet use here. There are plenty of great climbers here that wear helmets.

n00b wrote: It's like arguing "if you're gonna drive drunk, don't bother with a seatbelt because it won't address the likely cause of your accident."

Meeeh, I think its your logic that needs work. When I see a drunk driver with his seatbelt on, I don't think to myself, "gee, good thing he has his seatbelt on!" And that is not because the seatbelt is unimportant, its because compared to driving drunk, the seatbelt is a distant issue. Same goes for the helmet. My point is that folks should learn to rank safety concerns and then act appropriately. I will use your analogy format as an example. When I see a climber sport climbing with a helmet on and his leg behind the rope, this is my train of thought.

First and foremost, that climber should spend much more energy worrying about the core problem in this scenario: his leg is behind the rope (i.e. driving drunk). Most often the belayer and the climber are largely oblivious to the danger posed by their sh*tty rope management. But those same folks spent effort packing their helmet, hiking it in, and then making sure to put it on. How much you want to bet that if said climber attempted to leave the ground without their helmet that the belayer would chastise them? "Whew, I almost (dangerously) forgot my helmet!!" But then two seconds later, Ding and Dong's sh*tty rope work puts them in a dangerous situation without much of a thought. That my friend is a case of misplaced priorities. And then this helmet monkey is going to lecture me about not wearing a helmet because its "dangerous"? Hah!

J. Albers wrote: Meeeh, I think its your logic that needs work. When I see a drunk driver with his seatbelt on, I don't think to myself, "gee, good thing he has his seatbelt on!" And that is not because the seatbelt is unimportant, its because compared to driving drunk, the seatbelt is a distant issue. Same goes for the helmet. My point is that folks should learn to rank safety concerns and then act appropriately. I will use your analogy format as an example. When I see a climber sport climbing with a helmet on and his leg behind the rope, this is my train of thought. First and foremost, that climber should spend much more energy worrying about the core problem in this scenario: his leg is behind the rope (i.e. driving drunk). Most often the belayer and the climber are largely oblivious to the danger posed by their sh*tty rope management. But those same folks spent effort packing their helmet, hiking it in, and then making sure to put it on. How much you want to bet that if said climber attempted to leave the ground without their helmet that the belayer would chastise them? "Whew, I almost (dangerously) forgot my helmet!!" But then two seconds later, Ding and Dong's sh*tty rope work puts them in a dangerous situation without much of a thought. That my friend is a case of misplaced priorities. And then this helmet monkey is going to lecture me about not wearing a helmet because its "dangerous"? Hah!

You're setting up a false dichotomy. It's not either-or, and wearing a helmet doesn't mean you've failed to prioritize other safety practices.

If I forget to put my helmet on, my belayer reminds me. If I misplace my leg behind the rope, my belayer tells me. I try to do neither, but occasionally I fail at both.

I'm not in any way arguing that everyone should wear a helmet for every climb. I wear mine most of the time, but occasionally choose not to.

What I'm pointing out is the failure of logic in saying that safety equipment is only worth employing if it addresses the "root cause" of the accident. That's preposterous. Safety equipment is there to mitigate the harm of an accident regardless of the cause. That applies to helmets, ropes and seat belts. In addition to taking mitigating steps, we should seek to avoid the accidents to begin with by having good technique, by driving safely, or whatever. But that doesn't obviate the good sense of using safety equipment when warranted.

J. Albers wrote: F*cking thank you Ken. Jebus. I have been watching this thread in mild "eye roll" mode for a few days now, but I just can't read anymore without saying something. Anyone else here notice that almost all of the bad fall examples listed on this thread that "require" a helmet involve having your leg behind the rope? Want a sure fire way to not need a helmet while sport climbing? Don't ever put your stupid leg behind the rope. Period. Not by accident. Not because you were too busy "cruxing". Not because the route was traversing. Not because it was hard to scoop because of the bolt placement. Never. Period. When I was learning to climb, my mentors beat it into my head so relentlessly that I do it subconsciously. I take internal pride at my ability to scoop the rope in cruxy and stressful situations. And its on my mental checklist when I watch someone else. Do they maintain smooth footwork when in a difficult spot? Did they scoop the rope no matter what? These are the hallmarks of a climber with her sh*t together. And no, it doesn't matter if its 5.4 or 5.13, so crying that I am condescending to noobs is misplaced. If all of you helmet sermon givers spent as much time and effort striving for high standards of rope management composure instead of supplanting your skill set with "insurance helmet", then I wouldn't have to shake my head constantly every time I am out climbing because some idiot is cruxing with their leg behind the rope so badly that even with a helmet they are going to end up with a concussion. And you better believe that I will rag on anyone I climb with -- noob or 15 year veteran --when they fail to keep their leg from behind the rope. And whenever I teach someone new to climb, I always make sure to communicate to them that there are two primary ways (beyond objective hazards) to get hurt sport climbing: gross pilot error on the part of the belayer, and letting your leg get stuck behind the rope. There are very few rules in climbing that I always follow because climbing inherently requires constant risk assessment and judgement calls that are situationally dependent. But you want an "absolute" statement: Wearing a helmet is a poor substitute for never letting your leg get behind the rope. I don't look at that video and think "boy, what a noob". I watch that video and think "boy, what a f*cking idiot that he had his leg behind the rope so badly that he took an inverted, wall crashing fall on a severely overhung route". This isn't a noob thing. Its a pay attention to important details thing. Its no different than checking your knot every time you leave the ground. Failing to do so is inviting trouble. Part of what bugs me is the self-righteousness of the always-wear-a-helmet crowd. And this is coming from someone who always wears a helmet while ice climbing, trad climbing, run-out climbing, or multi-pitch climbing. In other words, I wear a helmet situationally. Why? Because I hate helmets and my risk-to-comfort assessment at a non-choss sport venue allows me to forgo wearing a helmet without worrying about it. And that is my choice. You get your choice. And the rules of not being a human snotty douche nozzle means that I don't rag on you crash helmet folks for wearing a helmet every time you leave your house and in exchange, you crash helmet folks are not condescending snots to me because I don't. Seriously, when I was learning to ice climb I couldn't imagine going up to Alex Lowe and telling him that he is an idiot for not wearing a helmet when climbing in Hyalite. Sheesh folks, get a grip. This is such poor logic that its not worth the effort to refute.

I love this rant, sorry, but I do. Why? Not just because of what you say here, but because you specifically will kick ass in person if your climber(any climber??) has their rope behind their leg, making no bones about the kill potential. Yay!! I like that you are willing to slap people upside the head with no hesitation. We all need to have a little more of that out there, especially when it is life and death. A helmet won't keep you alive in a big pendulum swing into the cliff, nor keep your neck from snapping, or even prevent a concussion. Who hits harder, a high school junior varsity football player or a hunk of rock?

Helmets are each individual's choice, and will ONLY save your life under certain circumstances. They are just a tool, as is all the rest of it.

Personally, I think it far more likely that a helmet will keep me from stupid, annoying, small bashes that just bleed all over and make a mess of your climbing outing. And, the ridiculously small possibility that a dinky rock will fall from high enough up, make a direct hit, and take me out entirely. And, that I am quite capable of face planting on the scramble that passes for an approach trail, at some of our local climbs. Six or eight feet down, forehead first? Probably messy. So I wear MY helmet. My choice. Who's safer? Honestly, probably you. But it doesn't have a thing to do with our helmet choices. :-)

I am relatively new to climbing, but the very first time I wore a helmet on an outdoor trip, my climbing partner accidentally kicked off a rock while climbing and it landed square on my head while I was belaying. He didn't even notice that he had done that so didn't warn me either. I noticed it was a pretty small rock but it dug a bit of a hole in my helmet and I remember the force felt surprisingly heavy for its size due to distance x velocity (or whatever the physics equation might be) and all that. It would have definitely hurt and caused bleeding if I didn't have a helmet on, even though I wouldn't have died from it. Not wanting to bleed from my head is a pretty solid reason for me to wear my helmet, even if I look dorky or even if it doesn't feel all that comfortable.

To me, it's like not wearing a seatbelt in the car, or a helmet while cycling (which I do as well). 99% of the time, nothing will happen and you will be fine, but for that 1% in which something happens, the result could be death which could have been prevented. So, no thanks. I'm not on the crag to look cool.. I just want to have fun while maximizing my safety.

Sounds like your partner should pay more attention...or find another partner.