Munters and Rope Twisting

If you read the OP, he's talking about multi pitch climbing. Obviously, no one lowers with an ATC when top rope belaying from the bottom. That's not the situation we're talking about. We're talking about lowering someone in a situation where you need to get someone down from the top of a climb, and they can't rappel, or it is faster to lower than reset for a rappel. In that case, yes, you need a backup.

From Climbing Self Rescue p.76. "Lowering with one follower using a Reverso style device... Important note: Remember to back the system up with a Munter tied with a carabiner on your belay loop; you are, after all, releasing your partner's belay... Again, remember to back the system up with a Munter and carabiner off your harness."

You can use the prussik back up or the Munter back up, but you need a back up when lowering in this situation.

RangerJ wrote:From Climbing Self Rescue p.76. "Lowering with one follower using a Reverso style device... Important note: Remember to back the system up with a Munter tied with a carabiner on your belay loop; you are, after all, releasing your partner's belay... Again, remember to back the system up with a Munter and carabiner off your harness." You can use the prussik back up or the Munter back up, but you need a back up when lowering in this situation.

Reread it. It's talking about lowering when releasing in guide mode

wivanoff wrote: Reread it. It's talking about lowering when releasing in guide mode

Yes, exactly. That's the situation that we're talking about. The OP is asking about using a Munter directly off the anchor.

From the SPI Manual for top managed sites.

RangerJ wrote: Yes, exactly. That's the situation that we're talking about. The OP is asking about using a Munter directly off the anchor. From the SPI Manual for top managed sites.

No, you are. I think everyone else from sgt.sausage onward is talking about lowering in regular ATC mode.

"Do you backup an ATC/tube-type device?" <<-- No mention of guide-mode

And for the record, I agree with everyone else: You do not need to back up a Munter, Super-Munter, Regular ATC or tube device when lowering.

I would provide some type of backup if switching from belaying to lowering off a Reverso or ATC-Guide in guide mode because it can release unexpectedly. (Not that I ever belay my second in guide mode)

wivanoff wrote:(Not that I ever belay my second in guide mode)

This.
+1

wivanoff wrote: No, you are. I think everyone else from sgt.sausage onward is talking about lowering in regular ATC mode. "Do you backup an ATC/tube-type device?" <<-- No mention of guide-mode And for the record, I agree with everyone else: You do not need to back up a Munter, Super-Munter, Regular ATC or tube device when lowering. I would provide some type of backup if switching from belaying to lowering off a Reverso or ATC-Guide in guide mode because it can release unexpectedly. (Not that I ever belay my second in guide mode)

Sadly, current AMGA practice is to backup a lower EVEN WITH A PLAIN OLD ATC device. Slingshot TR climbing will never be the same. :-)

JCM wrote:In this thread there is some discussion of belaying directly off the anchor with a munter hitch on multipitch routes. Apparently this is quite common in Europe.

Directly off the anchor means using the Munter or ATC at the top of the climb. On the anchor. Not on the body.

Gunkiemike wrote: Sadly, current AMGA practice is to backup a lower EVEN WITH A PLAIN OLD ATC device. Slingshot TR climbing will never be the same. :-)

Sadly, that tells me AMGA is even more screwed up than I thought. And I didn't have a great opinion to begin with.

People don't want climbing knowledge and they certainly don't want to think. They want rules and acronyms and point systems they add up to convince them their anchors are uber-safe.

How else will they be able to argue on the interwebs?

wivanoff wrote: Sadly, that tells me AMGA is even more screwed up than I thought. And I didn't have a great opinion to begin with. People don't want climbing knowledge and they certainly don't want to think. They want rules and acronyms and point systems they add up to convince them their anchors are uber-safe. How else will they be able to argue on the interwebs?

edit
Because I drive some people crazy by being so off topic I'll add ~
that if you redirect the seconds rope through a high piece you gain more of control. Than going just off your waist.
( I'm pretty sure that is what Marc801 is saying he does )
wow!
Read on, I'm wrong, Marc does not redirect!

THIS
The United States has been very poorly severed by the original organization.
I put forth that it was on purpose. The need for the old guard to maintain superiority
A pick and choose who will pay to play and to scare land managers into requiring a cert from them
Was total BS.
This is NOT the case now, ( still, if you want to be a fully world recognized guide go to Europe.)

I'm sure once they had enough backing, they cut up the pie psi? Or what ever Al Joely started next.
Big bad news for world wide guiding Back in the day,

Things now are So Much better !! the standards And lofty goals Are being met.
So all in all the best that can be achieved.

Derek? More than anything, the terms that the program used. Taught and embraced, have left
a bad taste in the mouths of many climbers with decades more experience, than the professionals.
I have carefully NOT commented on the current state of the program .
I do not know the program's now just the inflated sense of self importance that the price
of admission seems to foster.

Keep both rope(s) ends parallel and it/they won't twist.

One reason why it is common. When belaying your second using Munter hitch, you're almost ready to lower 'em down in seconds - all you need is to tie a Munter mule, form a Prussik, untie the Munter mule, lower down. Compare to an ATC in guide mode belay sequence: tie a Munter mule, form a technical ledge (the 2nd Munter mule), form a Munter hitch and the 3rd Munter mule, untie the 1st mule, lower down a bit to shift the load to the technical ledge, remove the belay device from the anchor, without loosing the belay (technical ledge is not a belay, it is a load re-positioning tool) untie the 3rd mule and take the slack, retie the mule (number 4) below the Munter hitch, now untie the 2nd mule, lower down a bit to shift the load to the Munter hitch, retie the mule on cordalette to form a Prussik below the Munter hitch (the 5th!), untie the 4th mule, now lower all way down.

wivanoff wrote: Sadly, that tells me AMGA is even more screwed up than I thought. And I didn't have a great opinion to begin with. People don't want climbing knowledge and they certainly don't want to think. They want rules and acronyms and point systems they add up to convince them their anchors are uber-safe. How else will they be able to argue on the interwebs?

...except that AMGA standards are not about rules, acronyms, point systems, or any other one size fits all prescribed solutions. They are entirely about acquiring a deep tool box of skills and the judgment to apply the right tool in the right place at the right time.

For the record, the AMGA guideline that lowers should be backed up with a friction hitch applies only to lowers directly off of anchors with munters, tube-style devices, or flipped plaquettes. It has nothing to do with typical yo-yo top rope scenarios. In such top-managed lowering scenarios, an autoblock on the brake strand takes literally seconds to rig, introduces a trivial amount of complexity to the system, and greatly enhances security

Jim Titt wrote: Push the rope through rather than pull if you see what I mean. And keep the knot real slack.

+1

Every weekend there will be 1000 climbers using this method across Europe. I really does work, but is much better off a direct belay, not off your harness, and with a single rope.

AMGA = Chads

Marc801 wrote: This. +1

You don't? If the anchors are high enough to make it convenient and safe then I pretty much always bring up my second in guide mode. Easy and safe.

Ryan Hamilton wrote: You don't? If the anchors are high enough to make it convenient and safe then I pretty much always bring up my second in guide mode. Easy and safe.

Nope. Never. In fact I don't even own a device that has a "guide mode".
Admittedly I'm pretty old school on some stuff - I belay off my harness, leader or second. It also means I've almost never put any force on my anchors.
No, I've never used a friction back-up when lowering anyone - that's what the device is for.

Marc801 wrote: Nope. Never. In fact I don't even own a device that has a "guide mode". Admittedly I'm pretty old school on some stuff - I belay off my harness, leader or second. It also means I've almost never put any force on my anchors. No, I've never used a friction back-up when lowering anyone - that's what the device is for.

Belaying off the anchors exposes the anchors to less force...

JK- wrote: Belaying off the anchors exposes the anchors to less force...

What?

Michael Schneider wrote: What?

It's my understanding that belaying a follower/second off the harness (with a redirect) puts twice as much force on the anchor, compared to belaying directly off the anchor. Is this not called the pulley effect? Is this not what the above poster is referring to?

FourT6and2 wrote: It's my understanding that belaying a follower/second off the harness (with a redirect) puts twice as much force on the anchor, compared to belaying directly off the anchor. Is this not called the pulley effect? Is this not what the above poster is referring to?

It is not clear to me what 'JK-' is trying to say. Ten sparse words, that indicate a paradox....

Hey there!
Yes, if you hang off the same anchor. In the case of a non-bolted belay stance, one often makes two boomproof anchors. Yours that you hang off or not & one to bring the second up and clip into, as the next belay anchor.if you are swapping leads this saves a step and the clusterfx of switching. Ymmv.

Michael Schneider wrote:Yes, if you hang off the same anchor.

So if my statement is correct, that means the other person's comment is correct. Which begs the question... why are you questioning that person's statement that belaying off the anchor puts less force on that anchor? Seems a little contradictory.