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Incident: Climber's Bowline Came Untied While Climbing at Rifle

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Sam Stephens wrote: Really surprised I'm still alive actually. Can't believe I could live through such insane choices of knots and belay devices. If climbing doesn't kill me maybe the cigars and chewing tobacco will.
might as well take up BASE too...
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347
20 kN wrote: I agree, it's just unnecessary. I got in trouble at a gym because I dident tie a fisherman's backup on my figure eight. I had to explain to the "proctor" kid who had about a years climbing experience how it was unnecessary and no climber has ever been injured or killed as a result of not backing up a properly tied figure eight.
A nice way to finish an 8 for some extra security of the tail and keeping the cluster down is to double it back with a "yosemite finish" similar to the picture of the bowline yosemite finish in the first post.
JohnReg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 10
Aleks Zebastian wrote:climbing friend, I am climber of the climbing rocks! Look at me I am so strong with the hulking guns and hard grades! My fingers have the absolute max crushing strength, and I for easy flash 5.13 bro, but I am afraid my figure 8 will be too hard to untie and may require slight effort after fall!
+1

My concern is for inexperienced people reading this thread as a sales pitch for the bowline over the 8.

A properly tied bowline will NEVER fail.

Most places teach the 8 to beginners because MOST people find the 8 fairly intuitive and with enough tail it does not require a back up to function (i.e. another knot that can be tied improperly) while the bowline requires a backup.

Both knots (bowline and 8) must be tied correctly to keep you from falling.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
outsideonline.com/1911861/b…

Many of you have read this one... its a great example where the story is..."The bowline came undone.." and then you read a paragraph further and it states Long never finished the knot (ie he didnt tie a bowline).

Articles, statements, and forum titles like this are wrong and very misleading to the majority of climbers.

Here's a great example of how tying the knot incorrectly will produce a knot which will come undone because its NOT a bowline. The error here is the YOS finish doesn't go back around the bite, it goes straight back through the loop around the climbing line.

youtube.com/watch?v=1dj5Y3h…
Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90

Morgan, that video highlights my point perfectly.

It's MUCH easier to tie a bowline incorrectly, and not recognize it. I'm pretty familiar with bowline knots, and it took me a second to see what he was doing there. And he's right, you can invert the loops and untie the bowline. He's doing the yosemite finish correctly. netknots.com/rope_knots/yos…

I wont argue with you that there are secure versions of the knot. But the ability to easily make a mistake, and not have it caught, shouldn't be under estimated.

article wrote:It's true that, carefully tied and tightened, a bowline can be a fairly safe tie-in knot, and it's tempting to think, I won't make their dumb mistake. But it's also true that many, if not most, rock climbing fatalities are the result of "dumb mistakes," whether that's clipping into a carabiner that's not secured to the anchor or rappelling off the end of a rope. No one is immune to the occasional lapse
Taib · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 5

Very Interesting article, and good to question what knot you use and how safe it is.
Does anybody else us the EBSB.

After watching the above clip of the yosemite finish being done incorrectly I was wondering if any one has encountered problems with the EBSB.

cheers

EBSB

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
USBRIT wrote: If folk insist on pretending they can climb a high graded sport climb so much so that they end up falling so often that they cannot untie their knot then they should use a set of etriers. Whats the world coming to ??
Sir, you are like your a troglodyte who is committed to idiocy. Well done. All climbing is pretend, especially your amazing accomplishments. It would be a pleasure to demonstrate your stupidity, but I doubt you could bring yourself to a sport crag, as you climbing ability tops out before the warmups begin; not a flattering experience. Of course, with that proficiency, I don't' blame you for not understanding the cinching of a figure 8. It does. It sucks.

Etriers, is that an argument or an excuse for never really pushing yourself? I am perplexed.
patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25

Wow somebody really has a raw nerve dogging their way up sport climbs. ;-)

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Pete Spri wrote: A nice way to finish an 8 for some extra security of the tail and keeping the cluster down is to double it back with a "yosemite finish" similar to the picture of the bowline yosemite finish in the first post.
Yes, I used to do that all the time before I learned of the bowline. It makes it even harder to untie after whipping though.
Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
J Q wrote: Sir, you are like your a troglodyte who is committed to idiocy. Well done. All climbing is pretend, especially your amazing accomplishments. It would be a pleasure to demonstrate your stupidity, but I doubt you could bring yourself to a sport crag, as you climbing ability tops out before the warmups begin; not a flattering experience. Of course, with that proficiency, I don't' blame you for not understanding the cinching of a figure 8. It does. It sucks. Etriers, is that an argument or an excuse for never really pushing yourself? I am perplexed.
Just a bit of tongue in cheek.. bet not many push themselves (whippers ) on trad routes ... Indian Creek sport not counted... Anyway if you do not have the strength to untie a tight figure of eight its little wonder your whipping ....
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
USBRIT wrote: Anyway if you do not have the strength to untie a tight figure of eight its little wonder your whipping ....
You really don't know what you're talking about.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
J Q wrote: Sir, you are like your a troglodyte who is committed to idiocy. Well done. All climbing is pretend, especially your amazing accomplishments. It would be a pleasure to demonstrate your stupidity, but I doubt you could bring yourself to a sport crag, as you climbing ability tops out before the warmups begin; not a flattering experience. Of course, with that proficiency, I don't' blame you for not understanding the cinching of a figure 8. It does. It sucks. Etriers, is that an argument or an excuse for never really pushing yourself? I am perplexed.
Hmm, at least his sense of humour is intact even after a lifetime of accomplishments and a level of skill I´ve hoped to emulate for the last 50 years. I´ve overtaken him in first ascents numbers but still languish far behind in ability for sure.
And you?
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Marc801 wrote: You really don't know what you're talking about.
Suckered you as well? Thought you were amarter than that:-)
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Jim Titt wrote: Suckered you as well?
Not really....but half the noobs on here will believe that bit of tripe. Look at the number of people that still don't understand stick clipping or who question the safety of clipping to a single 45kN anchor because it's not redundant.
Adam Stackhouse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 13,970
Guy Keesee wrote: All I know is this: I have personally known three (3) who have had catastrophic events happen to them and their bowlines and zero with Fig 8. so the data clearly shows 3 to 0 rate ... but you keep doing what you wish
Yup. Been climbing for 25 yrs. Never had a figure eight fail on me yet.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Jim Titt wrote: Hmm, at least his sense of humour is intact
Maybe it's just me, but I don't find spiteful cliches about other climbers all that funny.
Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
Mark E Dixon wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I don't find spiteful cliches about other climbers all that funny.
Always felt sorry for climbers who take themselves too seriously .. Sorry I upset you...
Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
Marc801 wrote: Not really....but half the noobs on here will believe that bit of tripe. Look at the number of people that still don't understand stick clipping or who question the safety of clipping to a single 45kN anchor because it's not redundant.
I am one who never understood the reason to stick clip unless its to make the climb ultra safe or cheat?.... or the single 45kN anchor being redundant? Some folk I know would belay or rap off a stick of rhubarb.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
USBRIT wrote: I am one who never understood the reason to stick clip unless its to make the climb ultra safe or cheat?.... or the single 45kN anchor being redundant? Some folk I know would belay or rap off a stick of rhubarb.
Nope, not biting.
Search for the numerous threads.
Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
J Q wrote: Sir, you are like your a troglodyte who is committed to idiocy. Well done. All climbing is pretend, especially your amazing accomplishments. It would be a pleasure to demonstrate your stupidity, but I doubt you could bring yourself to a sport crag, as you climbing ability tops out before the warmups begin; not a flattering experience. Of course, with that proficiency, I don't' blame you for not understanding the cinching of a figure 8. It does. It sucks. Etriers, is that an argument or an excuse for never really pushing yourself? I am perplexed.


I like your style...I have dragged myself to and fro to a few sport climbing areas , even FA a few but I am afraid a find a line of bolts (usually one pitch ) did not leave me with the memorable moments that you get with climbs that have some risk and a few more pitches regardless of grade.There is plenty of rock in the US that you can first ascent ground up on sight ....if you have not tried it give it a shot . I think it may gave you lots more satisfaction than diddling about for hours on a 5.13 sport climb .... maybe not as you probably will have to climb at a lot lower grade.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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