Helmets

Nick Goldsmith wrote:The absolute dumbest is the folks who only wear their helmets situationaly. Like they think they can actualy predict when and where they will have an accident. this is stupid on many levels. 1st murphy is smarter that you and will definatly fck you up when the helmet is off. 2nd its programing yourself for failure "this climb is super sketch so i better wear a helmet" is a negative thought process at a time when positive thought process is nessicary for success and and finaly its just plain stupid to carry a lid arround an not bother to wear it.....

This is amazingly poor logic. I think if you are going to start to point out who is "dumb" then you really should begin with yourself.

Risk management is the name of the game and choosing the situations on when to wear a helmet is part of that.

Do you wear a helmet on chossy trad? What about top roping in a gym? That is situational choice right there.

Tim Lutz wrote: Some crags are chossier than others.

I was leading a well bolted moderate sport route below my grade just the other week and my helmet saved me. It was a climb I knew I was going to flash with little effort and some posters in this thread might choose not to wear a helmet on this Climb. I wore my helmet, and happy I did. On one of the moves I pulled up onto a ledge swiftly and hit my head on the roof above me. Without the helmet I probably would have ended up with a bruise at the least or maybe a laceration. Worst case scenario I could have been reaching for slack and then hit my head and fell a long ways. I always wear my helmet outdoors. The only reason I justify not using one in the gym is because I'm on top rope in the gym and there are employees around if I do get injured, out in the woods not so much.

GE24 wrote: Apples and oranges Patto.

My point exactly. Situations vary considerably.

GE24 wrote: If you apply a little inductive reasoning, you will see that most posts are about helmets and outdoor climbing. Thus we can assume, with some certainty, but not 100%, that most people are talking about outdoor climbing.

So the situation does matter?

GE24 wrote:Stop calling people dumb.

Um. I wasn't the one who chose to use that term. I was quoting Nick.

Damn, another helmet lecture....

patto wrote:I say this because I've seen the devastation that mandatory helmets have done to cycling participation in some states and some parts of the world. Rockclimbers should be thankful they have the choice.

What on Earth are you talking about?

I didn't have one for a while, mostly because I had a limited gear budget and it felt like an optional thing. But then I started to lean more about Traumatic Brain Injuries, and realized how stupid it would be to put four years and thousands of dollars into a master's degree just to risk a TBI over a $50 helmet.

I got the Petzl Meteor and I've literally forgotten I'm wearing it, it's that light and comfortable.

Ted Pinson wrote: What on Earth are you talking about?

Mandating helmets reducing cycling participation.

GE24 wrote: Ditto. Last I checked, cycling has been booming. Mandatory helmets haven't stopped the cycling craze.

When was the last time you checked?

GE24 wrote: No. You compared indoor to outdoor climbing which is apples to oranges. Outside is all apples. Don't spin my words.

Wow. You don't think situations can vary wildly outside? No word spinning involved. In fact I think I'll quote your full sentence this time just to emphasise its ridiculousness.

"Outside is all apples." -GE24

GE24 wrote: No. You compared indoor to outdoor climbing which is apples to oranges. Outside is all apples. Don't spin my words. And yes you did use the word by infering that Nick was dumb.

I think he was just using the two most extreme examples, chossy trad and indoor toproping. I'm a big fan of helmets myself, however if I'm sport climbing something really steep (say at the red river gorge) then I probably won't wear one. There is just no likely scenario you'd need one. So something like that compared to chossy trad climbing is apples and oranges too. In fact some sport climbing outdoors is more similar to gym climbing then say, climbing in the fisher towers. It's funny to criticize situational helmet wearing when there are situations that everybody doesn't wear one. Of course it's situational and different for different people.

My point is If your going to carry the thing around you might as well carry it on your head. When I see someone bring a lid to the cliff and then pick and choose when they have it on their head or in the pack it's effing stooped. Accidents happen on their own time. We don't get too choose when that will be. If we did know when and where the accident was supposed to happen there would never be an accident. So if you really think you are smarter than Murphy's laws and you take your lid off just because it's a steep clip up you are not nearly as smart as you think you are. Murphy might just have your partner lower you off the end of the rope. Oopsi, you just fell 10 ft into a pile of rocks and your going to be drooling your oatmeal all over yourself for the rest of your life because your helmet was in the pack instead of on your head. I find this infinatly dumber than simply choosing to not wear a helmet at all.

Any time a natural/human cause rock or ice fall hazard exists, skiing downhill, or a crevasse fall is possible, I have a lid on. Which basically means all outdoor climbing, scrambling, and skiing requires a lid.

Where I live it is illegal to ride your bike in state parks without a helmet no matter what your age is. I was just climbing in Castle Rock today and watched a biker get turned around by a ranger for riding without a helmet on. It may not be a law everywhere but it is certainly being enforced more in some popular places.

Ok. I'm more skeptical about the claim that this is somehow affecting participation ("man, I was all psyched to ride today...but if I have to wear a helmet? F that, I'm taking the train!").

Ted Pinson wrote:Ok. I'm more skeptical about the claim that this is somehow affecting participation ("man, I was all psyched to ride today...but if I have to wear a helmet? F that, I'm taking the train!").

I don't know why helmet laws make people ride less, but the data says that they do.

wsj.com/articles/do-bike-he…

Eh, the studies cited seem limited and the article's stance fairly inconclusive...as stated in the article, there are many possible factors that could have contributed to Seattle's lower participation, and more data are needed to really draw a definitive conclusion. The point about bike-shares is well taken, however. Even if the Seattle company seems to have come up with a solution, I don't particularly like the idea of having to pay extra for something that I'm legally required to use.

I put a da-brim on my helmet dabrim.com/html/products/cl… and wear the helmet as a hat during the approach. It turns out the a helmet's ventilation is better than a hat so it is cooler wearing a hat.

I also wear the helmet climbing and both head protection and sun protection. I have had many skin cancers on the face and neck most likely caused by getting repeatably sunburned while climbing in my younger years.

Tim Lutz wrote: I am always bumping my head in the bouldering cave at the gym, but when I wear a helmet bouldering indoors, people laugh at me. I don't know why they laugh at safety! : (

Funny, but if you're bumping your head in the bouldering room then you have no place in a gym. Silly.

Ted Pinson wrote:Ok. I'm more skeptical about the claim that this is somehow affecting participation ("man, I was all psyched to ride today...but if I have to wear a helmet? F that, I'm taking the train!").

what if this was at a climbing area ? I know i'd get the hell out.

Yes to both.

Serious questions;

What happened to "never climb underneath another party?"

"Yell out rock if something falls or is dropped?

Nick Goldsmith wrote:My point is If your going to carry the thing around you might as well carry it on your head. When I see someone bring a lid to the cliff and then pick and choose when they have it on their head or in the pack it's effing stooped. Accidents happen on their own time. We don't get too choose when that will be. If we did know when and where the accident was supposed to happen there would never be an accident. So if you really think you are smarter than Murphy's laws and you take your lid off just because it's a steep clip up you are not nearly as smart as you think you are. Murphy might just have your partner lower you off the end of the rope. Oopsi, you just fell 10 ft into a pile of rocks and your going to be drooling your oatmeal all over yourself for the rest of your life because your helmet was in the pack instead of on your head. I find this infinatly dumber than simply choosing to not wear a helmet at all.

There are numerous rational reason why one would take a helmet off at a crag. I regularly take mine on and off according to need. Clipping it to my harness in the process.

Not recognising that different situations have different risks is the dumb thing here.