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First ascent, aid or not an ascent at all? An ethical question.

Original Post
Steve Skelton · · Lyttelton, New Zealand · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 135

I have been, mostly alpine climbing with a group of people who, if they fall or aid on a first ascent will return from the hills and claim the ascent, giving it a free grade, name, etc. When I've raised a concern about this I've been told falls don't count in the mountains like they would on a sport climb.

I'm curious what others think, does a fall in the mointains not count? If you eventually free the move on the same attempt, without starting the pitch over, is that a free ascent? Can falls be given an aid grade, or is it not a first ascent at all? If you aid a little bit or sit on a piece, can the route be given a free grade based on what it felt like?

I'm talking mostly about mixed climbing.

don'tchuffonme · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 26
Steve Skelton wrote: If you eventually free the move on the same attempt, without starting the pitch over, is that a free ascent?
NO.

Steve Skelton wrote:Can falls be given an aid grade
What? No. Falls are falls. You either fell aiding or you fell free climbing. Falls don't receive grades.

Steve Skelton wrote: If you aid a little bit or sit on a piece, can the route be given a free grade based on what it felt like?
Why no, no it can't. Because if you AIDED it you don't KNOW what it felt like to FREE it.
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

Mixed climbing in the mountains? As in ice tools on rock or bolts and trad pro? Not that it matters.

Your friends are doing first ascents. They are still waiting for the FFA.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

My understanding is that, for massive/multi pitch routes, red pointing a single pitch is acceptable for the FA. This certainly happened with Tommy C and Kevin J on the Dawn Wall. If they aided, that leaves the route open for a FFA.

Edit: nm, just reread more carefully. Doesn't count if you don't start the pitch over.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

Ethical?

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

Regardless of the style if they finished the climb they can claim the FA. If there were falls, it is still a first ascent, there is no FFA to come along later. A red point might mean something and only really matters if the route is significant or of significant difficulty. In most cases it does not. That is, if one takes a fall on the FA but completes pitch without lowering down there is no FFA to be had just a red point.

As for the aid, as long as they note that aid was used again they can claim the FA. Someone else can get the FFA. That was recently done on a old route of mine we did with some A1, they freed it. We got the FA, they got FFA. If one thinks the aid will go free they can certainly note that as well as the percieved difficulty.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

I would be uncomfortable climbing with anyone who misrepresented his/her accomplishments, whether climbing related or otherwise.

@Allen- do you consider a pitch freed if the climber falls and hangs? Just in general, I realize the niceties don't always apply in the mountains, but even so, if you were to fall and hang would you claim a free ascent or simply an ascent?

Regardless, if somebody climbs the Greenwood Locke or Robson or something, I'm not going to quibble about whether they pulled on the occasional pin. Just don't lie to me about it.

Eli Buzzell · · noco · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5,507

In the alpine, nothing is cheating as long as you don't lie about it.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

What happens in the mountains, stays in the mountains...?

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25

If its the mountains and you are still freeing the moves then I'd still count it as a FFA even with a fall or two. If you are busy doing first ascents, screw bothering repeating a long route just to meet somebody's 'ethics' able one fall.

Lots of FFA were put up back in the day by yoyo-ing. (At least at my local crag.) First ascentionists would lower back down and start again but the'd be top roping up to the bit they fell off.

Likewise having pre placed DRAWS for a sport route sounds like it is cheapening things but that is the normal approach these days.

If you want to particularly pedantic about climbing a multipitch climb free, then a hanging belay doesn't fit my strict definition.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Lol. If you can't find a ledge before reaching the end of your rope, you are obligated to untie and solo until you can weight your feet!

Tony Yeary · · Arcadia, Califoria · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 730

Aid is aid and free is free. We all know the difference. At the local crag or in the big hills.

" If you eventually free the move on the same attempt, without starting the pitch over, is that a free ascent?"
Yes, but not an on sight.

Falls as stated above, are not graded.

If one is honest about their climbing, then a fall is a fall, regardless of where it takes place. This conversation speaks to the ethical divisions found in climbing in general. Ethics can change from one venue to another,from the crag to alpinism, but the honesty with which those ethics are reported must be as constant as the North Star.
My two cents.
TYeary

patto · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 25
Ted Pinson wrote:Lol. If you can't find a ledge before reaching the end of your rope, you are obligated to untie and solo until you can weight your feet!
There are much more sensible and safer options, aka simul climbing.

But free in my book means climbing without reliance on your equipment. Where it only exists as a backup. A hanging by definition is not this.

Again I'm not advocating this stance. I'm just saying that if you want to be pedantic about things then that is one logical conclusion.

Personally I'm not pedantic. Climbing is an individual thing. This only is relevant if you want to claim bragging rights.
Alex Kowalcyk · · Idaho · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 65

If you fall and still want to claim a free ascent, you must lower to the base of the pitch, untie rope and pull it through the gear, then re-lead, otherwise it would not count as free climbing the pitch, or the climb for that matter.

Steve Skelton · · Lyttelton, New Zealand · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 135

Right, So I guess what I'm reading here is, these guys are lying! And so am I I suppose if I've been party to not freeing and posting a free grade.

Which leads me to this question... If you do do a first ascent in the mountains but you fall, how do your grade it (that was my 'is it aid' question)?

Thomas Ramier · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 622
Alex Kowalcyk wrote:If you fall and still want to claim a free ascent, you must lower to the base of the pitch, untie rope and pull it through the gear, then re-lead, otherwise it would not count as free climbing the pitch, or the climb for that matter.
Free climbing is free climbing. If you fall off as long as you get back on and continue free climbing rather then useing aid tactics you are still free climbing. It's completely arbitrary whether you lower to the bottom of the route, bottom of the pitch, two feet, ten feet or two inches. If you are the first party to ascend the route in this style then by definition the route has been freed and you can name it, grade it, write home to mom about it and claim your prize money.
Ryanb. · · Chattanooga · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 5

An ethical question or a question of style?

Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
Thomas Ramier wrote: Free climbing is free climbing. If you fall off as long as you get back on and continue free climbing rather then useing aid tactics you are still free climbing. It's completely arbitrary whether you lower to the bottom of the route, bottom of the pitch, two feet, ten feet or two inches. If you are the first party to ascend the route in this style then by definition the route has been freed and you can name it, grade it, write home to mom about it and claim your prize money.
Agree ....
Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203
Mark E Dixon wrote:@Allen- do you consider a pitch freed if the climber falls and hangs? Just in general, I realize the niceties don't always apply in the mountains, but even so, if you were to fall and hang would you claim a free ascent or simply an ascent?
The pitch is freed and there now only the first red point, on-sight, or flash. A FFA implies that aid or some other trickery was used on the FA and later eliminated.

Alex Kowalcyk wrote:If you fall and still want to claim a free ascent, you must lower to the base of the pitch, untie rope and pull it through the gear, then re-lead, otherwise it would not count as free climbing the pitch, or the climb for that matter.
The above is not correct. A free ascent means no aid was used. As in free of aid. What is being describing is considered to be a red point ascent (or perhaps on-sight or flash ascent). The idea that one has not climbed a route until it was climbed "cleanly" as in sans falls I believe originated with the Stone Masters in the 70s. The red point originated from Kurt Albert about the same time in Germany also in the 70s.

Steve Skelton wrote:Right, So I guess what I'm reading here is, these guys are lying! And so am I I suppose if I've been party to not freeing and posting a free grade. Which leads me to this question... If you do do a first ascent in the mountains but you fall, how do your grade it (that was my 'is it aid' question)?
As said above aid is aid and free is free. A fall is not aid. You rate the climb based on the free climbing. Simple as that. Well sort of. If one falls after every piece of gear and calls it 5.9 it might really be harder. But that is when the second comes into play. They too can contribute to the grade.

Here is an example. A few weeks ago I was doing a new route on gear. About 1/3 of the way up a hold broke. I fell but I did not fall on to gear. I caught myself. I finished the climb. We called it 5.8 climbing claiming the FA. Will I mention the fall - hell no as it has nothing to with the style of the climb. Nor would I lower down and re-climb the route.

Now if was really hard and I dogged my way up it we would have still claimed a first ascent but because it was a single pitch route we would not have said anything about it until we got it cleaning (i.e. sans falls). Mostly because at that point if the FA implies a red point.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

As long as we're defIning terms, this is not an ethical question.

Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236

I feel these days there are a lot of gray areas. Perhaps the only true first ascent is ground up on sight ... Many climbers more so on single pitch climbs practice the route on a top rope.... check out the placements and then bravely lead the route ...which as well knowing they can do the moves and have the holds chalked marked. .. What sort of ascent is that ? surely the second as the first was on a top rope. ... .

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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